# ITR: Champion of Anti-science and Evasion (and au revoir everyone)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 20, 2008, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096 "2008-04-20T06:23:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/1 "2008-04-20T06:23:03Z")
**ITRchampion** , please change your attitude to science or change your profession.
Background: The very idea that some religions could have originated without divine inspiration is ludicrous, says he. Steady on, say I. I don’t expect theists to agree with me that _all_ religions started naturally – they wouldn’t be _theists_ in that case. But to not afford my natural worldview _any respect whatsoever_? Surely if I did my best and tried, where possible, to cite respected scientific sources and reference material, I could convince him that my position is _reasonable_, at least ?
[Could I fuck](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=461559&page=1&pp=50).
And what did we learn in the process? Well, you know those academic institutions where the world’s most eminent scientists compete for Nobel prizes and seek to understand the world we live in? They, and the research carried out therein, are apparently unworthy of any respect. This is because the people in **ITR** ’s church are more sensible, and because **ITR** submitted work he suspected to be worthless when _he_ was at university. Intellectual dishonesty like this is the bane of academia , and **ITR** appears to think that when Groucho Marx said “I would not join any club which would have me as a member”, he wasn’t making a joke, but an _argument_.
Nor should we apparently believe anything anthropologists tell us about tribal religions since they don’t “know themselves” well enough and, in any case, the tribes might just be having fun with us. As for psychology, ethology, neurobiology or cognitive science, forget it: These can be summarily dismissed along with any data contained in their numerous and rigorous scientific journals.
Now, it’s a shame that **ITR** doesn’t have the courage to explore religion objectively, but I’ve come to expect this from the American religious right, and am generally sanguine about it. Even when confronted with the choice of changing their worldview _slightly_ or rejecting whole swathes of scientific research, I am usually merely amused when their immoveable mindset decides the latter course for them, cognitive dissonance be damned. And so, I was preparing to let the thread die, satisfied that I might have planted seeds and facilitated an interesting debate (and thanks for your appreciation, **Digital** and **Hentor**.) So I clicked **ITR** ’s profile to check he had indeed been active without posting, and was now ignoring my entreaties to stay engaged. And what did I find?
The guy’s a frigging _science teacher_.
I dread to think what kind of negative view of science he might be formenting in his charges, to say nothing of the “submitting nonsense” issue. Just as troubling was his recommendation of E.F. Schumacher’s _A Guide for the Perplexed_, essentially one long God-of-the-Gaps argument based on a laughably inept grasp of science even in 1977 when it wasn’t 30 years out of date. If he is unaware what happens when science teachers posit that certain natural phenomena require some kind of Intelligent Designer, I’m sure the Dover area school board could remind him.
So thanks to everyone for these few weeks, I’d forgotten how enjoyable and addictive this place is. But I’d also forgotten just how disturbingly _backwards_ American attitudes can be sometimes, and how much more positive I am about humanity in general when I’m not immersed in them so deeply.
Cheerio. I assure you all I will endeavour to avoid letting the door, or indeed any other metaphor, slapping my ass on the way out.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/2 "2008-04-20T06:44:22Z")
“American attitudes”? I say we raise their rent! Who’s with me?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/3 "2008-04-20T06:51:09Z")
Looking at that thread, you should’ve saved some love for mswas as well.
---
### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/4 "2008-04-20T11:10:09Z")
[QUOTE=SentientMeat]
So thanks to everyone for these few weeks, I’d forgotten how enjoyable and addictive this place is. But I’d also forgotten just how disturbingly _backwards_ American attitudes can be sometimes, and how much more positive I am about humanity in general when I’m not immersed in them so deeply.
Cheerio. I assure you all I will endeavour to avoid letting the door, or indeed any other metaphor, slapping my ass on the way out.
[/QUOTE]
No! I missed you. Hell, even **Liberal** missed you - he kept mentioning you with great fondness while you were on break.
At least keep popping back in now and again. I hear it’ll be free again, soon.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Them](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Them)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/5 "2008-04-20T11:12:22Z")
_Totally stunned silence, followed by_
**BRAVO!!**
Any of you Waleseans wanna move into my neighborhood?! It’s cheap!
---
### Author:  [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/6 "2008-04-20T15:53:06Z")
Hey, now, some of us Americans are trying to keep the flag of reason flying.
But I agree with you about **ITR champion**. At first I thought he was interested in serious debate since he was the one who proposed reading theist and atheist books and debating them. But then it became obvious that he was totally immune to anything like reason. The low point came in [this thread on the soul,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=459960&page=1&pp=50) where he displayed an almost **lekatt** -like refusal to seriously consider the mountains of evidence that were presented to him in favor of physicalism. The nadir was post 70, where he put the word ‘scientists’ in scare quotes, implying that physicalist scientists aren’t real scientists, or something. As I said in the very next post, how fucking depressing that he is a science teacher. No wonder my \*college \* students don’t even know what the fucking Big Bang is, if they’ve got people like \*\*ITR \*\* teaching them ‘science’.
I’ll be very sorry to see you go, **Sentient Meat**. You were absolutely one of my favorite posters, one of the ones (perhaps \*the \* one) for whom I had the greatest respect: for your knowledge, your intellect, and your integrity. Your departure will be a great loss to this board.
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/7 "2008-04-20T16:18:39Z")
Here I was in complete agreement with you, and thinking “damn, another good one gone”, until you posted this tripe:
[QUOTE=SentientMeat]
But I’d also forgotten just how disturbingly _backwards_ American attitudes can be sometimes, and how much more positive I am about humanity in general when I’m not immersed in them so deeply.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not going to get into it with you today (plus you’ve left, unless you’re like the typical SDMBer who “leaves” multiple times by returning), but you’re being both bigoted and needlessly insulting. Not a high note to leave the Board on after you made such a good impression to some (like myself) while you were here.
---
### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/8 "2008-04-20T16:26:15Z")
[QUOTE=SentientMeat]
So thanks to everyone for these few weeks, I’d forgotten how enjoyable and addictive this place is. But I’d also forgotten just how disturbingly _backwards_ American attitudes can be sometimes, and how much more positive I am about humanity in general when I’m not immersed in them so deeply.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I’d stick with the _Guardian_ online if I wuz you. Much less risk of contamination by backward ideas.
You can maintain what Gen. Jack D. Ripper once referred to as “Purity of Essence” and have an easier time looking on the bright side of life. Good luck and cheerio.
---
### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/9 "2008-04-20T16:34:57Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson]
I’m not going to get into it with you today (plus you’ve left, unless you’re like the typical SDMBer who “leaves” multiple times by returning), but you’re being both bigoted and needlessly insulting. Not a high note to leave the Board on after you made such a good impression to some (like myself) while you were here.
[/QUOTE]
At the risk of a slapping, in fairness, he did say “sometimes”. While I don’t doubt there are many people in other developed western nations who share such views, you have to admit that the volume of people who indulge in this form of ignorance is indeed higher - by a huge degree - in the United States than in any other country in the West (higher even than the Vatican City). I can’t think of another western nation where the religious right is powerful enough to force school boards or their equivalent to indulge in the teaching of religion in science classes, and as such it is pefectly legitimate to label this a uniquely American phenomenon.
ETA: he did say on his return that he would only be here temporarily due to familial and work pressures.
---
### Author:  [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/10 "2008-04-20T16:51:23Z")
You’re welcome. I have to say that I’m sorry to see you take your leave once again – I was really looking forward to your commentary on Dennett’s _Freedom Evolves_ (particularly his attempts at weakening determinism) once I finish it and settle my thoughts enough to start a thread. Please do drop in from time to time, if at all possible.
I have to say that what really got me about that thread was the following (alluded to in the OP):
> [@ITR champion](#):
>
> For the record, though, I don’t expect you to respect my opinions on the subject. Indeed, my respect for your opinions would drop if you did. I would say that I don’t have any particular respect for august academic institutions or peer-reviewed scientific journals.
This, after stringing the debate along from his original appearance way back in _post #9_, knowing that peer-reviewed articles are a gold standard. I just can’t grasp the disingenuous mindset that would bring someone to waste not only _your_ time and effort in “debating” like that, but more incomprehensibly – _theirs_. A minor redemption might’ve been had if his posts were at least _entertaining_. Nope, not even that.
So, now I’ve established that there’s someone I put on as low a level as **lekatt** , albeit for different reasons. I didn’t think it possible, but there ya go.
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/11 "2008-04-20T16:53:44Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm]
I can’t think of another western nation where the religious right is powerful enough to force school boards or their equivalent to indulge in the teaching of religion in science classes, and as such it is pefectly legitimate to label this a uniquely American phenomenon.
[/QUOTE]
And I can’t understand living in a country which has an official State religion where the head of State is “Supreme Governor” in said religion, and which has anti-blasphemy laws (or will for another few weeks anyhow: [http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/03/uk-house-of-lords-votes-to-abolish.php](http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/03/uk-house-of-lords-votes-to-abolish.php)).
And I’m not going to get into a US v. UK fight either. It’s Sunday, don’t you have a CoE service you should be at? Kneel, kneel before your Pope Elizabeth! 😛
---
### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/12 "2008-04-20T16:59:25Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson]
And I can’t understand living in a country which has an official State religion where the head of State is “Supreme Governor” in said religion, and which has anti-blasphemy laws (or will for another few weeks anyhow: [http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/03/uk-house-of-lords-votes-to-abolish.php](http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/03/uk-house-of-lords-votes-to-abolish.php)).
[/QUOTE]
I agree, it’s outmoded and outlandish. Thankfully it’s honored almost entirely in the breach, not the observance - as have the silly old laws that are being repealed - and it hasn’t yet affected our science teaching.
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/13 "2008-04-20T21:03:28Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm]
I agree, it’s outmoded and outlandish. Thankfully it’s honored almost entirely in the breach, not the observance - as have the silly old laws that are being repealed - and it hasn’t yet affected our science teaching.
[/QUOTE]
Well, in fairness it hasn’t affected the science teaching of the US schools too. Every time that I’ve seen where “Intelligent Design” gets added as a curriculum, there is an outcry, it goes back for consideration, and either the Board members get voted out, or else it’s reversed by a court. It’s possible that there’s some district somewhere where it hasn’t been overturned. Overall, I fear that the abysmal science ignorance of the average American has to be blamed on something else.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/14 "2008-04-20T21:19:51Z")
I agree that there’s a lot of anti-science crap in the US. Despite it, however, the US somehow manages to remain at the forefront of scientific research. How does that happen?
Daniel
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### Author:  [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/15 "2008-04-20T21:24:36Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
I agree that there’s a lot of anti-science crap in the US. Despite it, however, the US somehow manages to remain at the forefront of scientific research. How does that happen?
Daniel
[/QUOTE]
It pays for the best scientists from other countries. 😃
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/16 "2008-04-20T21:26:28Z")
[QUOTE=rayh]
It pays for the best scientists from other countries. 😃
[/QUOTE]
A strategy scientifically proven to be successful!
Daniel
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/17 "2008-04-20T22:26:55Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
I agree that there’s a lot of anti-science crap in the US. Despite it, however, the US somehow manages to remain at the forefront of scientific research. How does that happen?
[/QUOTE]
Immigration as said, and riding on past accomplishments.
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### Author:  [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/18 "2008-04-20T23:14:02Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Immigration as said, and riding on past accomplishments.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you hate America, son? In the past 20 years, 16 of the Nobel prizes in chemistry have gone to Americans, either solely or shared; and 15 of the Nobel prizes in physics.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/19 "2008-04-20T23:22:31Z")
[QUOTE=The Cocky Watchman]
In the past 20 years, 16 of the Nobel prizes in chemistry have gone to Americans, either solely or shared; and 15 of the Nobel prizes in physics.
[/QUOTE]
The past is past. That doesn’t say anything about what will be happening 20 years from now, with fewer willing to immigrate thanks to our increased xenophobia, and with people with the educations produced by fundie-corrupted “science”.
---
### Author:  [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)
#### Post date: [April 20, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/itr-champion-of-anti-science-and-evasion-and-au-revoir-everyone/446096/20 "2008-04-20T23:39:29Z")
The past is indeed the past, which is why 15 of the next 20 Nobel prizes in chemistry and physics will be awarded to Americans. That research has already been done, or has been established and is in the midst of being done. The 20 years after that though, I grant you, may see a powershift - right now there are research programmes being kicked off in China and India that will ultimately lead to Nobel-prize winning, genre-defining work. ‘fundie-corrupted science’ is a nice comedic phrase that I can only assume you posted for levity, but in 20 years the US may indeed rue its cheap valuation of science research in this decade.
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