# It's 2015. Can we stop with the sexual harassment at work already? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125 "2015-08-28T00:48:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/61 "2015-08-28T21:07:41Z")
I beg to differ. I haven’t been involved in that many sexual harassment claims that have gone outside the company, thankfully, but the few we’ve had that went beyond the borders of the company, the complainant has invariably been asked by the hearing officer or arbitrator if they informed the harasser that the complainant was uncomfortable with the harasser’s behavior. Perhaps it isn’t legally required, but it is a question that will be asked and the complainant will be best served if they have taken that extra step. As an employer, it’s one of the first things we ask an employee who makes a complaint - have you talked with the harasser? We suggest that first because it can be simply a misunderstanding on one or the other employee’s part and easily dealt with without requiring a write up or other action that will impact the employee’s permanent record. And if it’s more serious, the complainant has strengthened any eventual case by making his or her position clear to the harasser. Of course if someone comes to us fearful of the harasser, we will not ask them to discuss their situation with the harasser. In fact, if they are fearful enough, we’ll call the police and let them take a report. The bulk of these cases, however, are misunderstandings, or simple d’oh moments where someone has inadvertently said or done something offensive, not meaning to do so. A simple conversation between the two employees can usually resolve them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/62 "2015-08-28T21:12:51Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > I beg to differ. > > I haven’t been involved in that many sexual harassment claims that have gone outside the company, thankfully, but the few we’ve had that went beyond the borders of the company, the complainant has invariably been asked by the hearing officer or arbitrator if they informed the harasser that the complainant was uncomfortable with the harasser’s behavior. Perhaps it isn’t legally required, but it is a question that will be asked and the complainant will be best served if they have taken that extra step. > > As an employer, it’s one of the first things we ask an employee who makes a complaint - have you talked with the harasser? We suggest that first because it can be simply a misunderstanding on one or the other employee’s part and easily dealt with without requiring a write up or other action that will impact the employee’s permanent record. And if it’s more serious, the complainant has strengthened any eventual case by making his or her position clear to the harasser. > > Of course if someone comes to us fearful of the harasser, we will not ask them to discuss their situation with the harasser. In fact, if they are fearful enough, we’ll call the police and let them take a report. > > The bulk of these cases, however, are misunderstandings, or simple d’oh moments where someone has inadvertently said or done something offensive, not meaning to do so. A simple conversation between the two employees can usually resolve them. Like I said- yes and no. It’s _expected_ in many cases, but **not** in _Quid pro quo_, which this would seem to fall under. I agree, in simple peer to peer " _misunderstandings, or simple d’oh moments where someone has inadvertently said or done something offensive, not meaning to do so_" then yes- “\*A simple conversation between the two employees can usually resolve them.”. \* But this looks like a\* Quid pro quo\* issue, which is different. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/63 "2015-08-28T21:32:04Z")
Seems like it’s being handled properly so far, **ivylass**. As to the side debate being carried out, ISTM that there may be some cultural leak-over of the “only come up the chain when you can’t resolve this among yourselves” POV that often may apply to _other_ aspects of work, say a disagreement over what deal to give a customer or who gets what prospects. Problem with that is that with things like sexual harassment, as mentioned, there is a duty of the employer to provide a safe environment to start with and you DO need to create a record and paper trail early on so that there will be no question that the proper steps were followed from the get-go when the time comes to take action. And may I agree that smart-assed comebacks and retaliatory dickishness are not the answer in a case like this. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/64 "2015-08-28T23:05:19Z")
The point about “confronting the harasser” isn’t telling people to settle it amongst themselves, it’s to ensure the harasser knows the attention is unwanted before it gets to HR. Stupid idea; going to HR first gives everyone a face-saving out. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’d like to think these jerks would learn some manners if women were assertive enough to shut them down and embarrass them on the spot. But of course that’s what HR is for, and it’s hard to come up with an ideal response in the moment. Sigh, we’d all like to think that, but in practice the woman gets labeled as a hypersensitive ball-busting bitch. And, quite possibly, called up to HR herself for “creating a hostile workplace environment”. I think the only useful response is “_ **What** _ did you just say?” ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/65 "2015-08-29T00:13:05Z")
I have to agree with that last idea. In fact I once said, “I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean that the way it sounded” in response to a dumb pass from an employer, and that was the end of it forever. But in the OP’s case I’m glad the boss took the complaint seriously, and yes, it does sound like it’s come up before with this guy. Hope he either reforms or gets fired. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/66 "2015-08-29T00:41:48Z")
In this case, I think it was pretty blatant. Telling Ivygirl that if he were her boyfriend, he wouldn’t be able to keep his hands off her. In what world could that be construed as a “misunderstanding?” The fact that he’s acted the same to other women is also points against him. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/67 "2015-08-29T00:45:20Z")
Tape it. If no result from boss, send to the guys wife, assuming he has one. ---
**Author:** ![bb49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b38774/32.png) [@bb49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bb49)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/68 "2015-08-29T05:12:13Z")
Sexual harassment will never end, not so long as men continue to be men and women continue to be women. In other words, vive la differance. What really bothers me though is the way women aggressors are handled versus male aggressors. We had an incident at work last year where there ended up being about a dozen complaints against one woman for sexual harassment. About 7 or 8 of the complaints ended up sticking and guess what happened to her? She received a one day suspension and was no longer able to work as a supervisor. That’s bullshit. If it had been a man with a dozen complaints against him, we all know what would have happened to him. Along with losing his job, he would have found himself in court. Btw, our union, which has about 30,000 members, is top heavy with women. Maybe that says it. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/69 "2015-08-29T05:17:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > There was an old Star Trek (TOS) episode where Alternate-Universe-Sulu tries to hit on Uhura. She rejects him at first. Then Uhura starts hitting on A-U-Sulu. Then when A-U-Sulu starts trying to get intimate, she hauls off and belts him, saying “Sorry. I’ve changed my mind again.” > > Suggest your daughter try that. Goddamn I am quitting the dope. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/70 "2015-08-29T12:54:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > HR is NOT your friend. > > It’s there to protect the company, not you. > > Now yes, if a scum manager becomes a clear liability, then HR will do something, but the best way to silence a single complaint is to simply get rid of the “squeaky wheel”- but of course say it’s for something else. > > Sales Manager or brand new clerk? Who does HR value more? As was said “worst HR team ever” - this guy already has a few strikes against him, so he is a clear liability - but neither Ivylass’ daughter or HR would know that had each woman not stepped forward. My harasser spent 18 months continuing to work for the company - then “poof” - one day he was told to pack up his desk. I never confirmed, but always wondered if I’d paved the way for him to say one more thing to one more woman and when she said something, it was because I - in a way - had her back. My complaint was not quiet, it was well known corporate gossip (Executive VP of a Fortune 500 company), that gives his next victim a lot of leverage, because now you know there is more than one of you - someone to stand in court next to you and say “me too” should it get that far. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/71 "2015-08-29T13:18:16Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > I don’t know where this came from or if you posted in the wrong thread or if it’s just a reference I’m not getting or what… but, barring that, it’s basically both threadshitting and calling every poster who has posted before you “stupid”, which you’ve been here very well long enough to know is against the rules outside of the Pit…so I’m giving you a warning for it. ETA Oh, what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/72 "2015-08-29T15:24:52Z")
It’s not the responsibility of the person being harrassed to engage with the harrasser. That’s just wrong. Think it through and you ought to be able to figure out why that policy would not be acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/73 "2015-08-29T19:35:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, sorta. It’s\* expected\* in many cases, but not in\* Quid pro quo\*, which this would seem to fall under. > > If it’s just a co-worker, and just a comment like this, yes, you will be asked “Why didn’t you just ask them to stop?” Well, if you read the entire thread, it looks like she did do the right thing by going straight to the boss. (BTW, you can get in HUGE trouble for firing someone over a sexual harassment claim. “Hostile work environment”?) I can’t believe this crap that women should just suck it up, because otherwise they’ll be looked at as troublemakers. Fuck that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/74 "2015-08-29T21:51:19Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Always. ALWAYS say something directly first. > > If you go to a manager and say Bob is hitting on you and you’d like it to stop, the first question is going to be “Have you told HIM to stop?” > > I’m pretty hard core on this and I’ve seen in in both directions, but if you never made any effort to tell the guy to knock it off over the course of several advances, then the fault is yours for not directly telling that person to stop. This is completely wrong. Whether or not done behavior constitutes harassment does not depend on the victim’s confronting her harasser. Do you see how this makes her a victim twice over? Disciplinary issues are a manager’s job. If you are a manager and someone comes to you with a problem like this and you let them know that they’re expected to try to work it out themselves before coming to you then not only are you being s bad manager but you’re also putting your company at legal risk. > [@Chimera](#): > > ‘No Reasonable Person’ ? Get real. If this ever hit a court and she was asked “did you ever tell him ‘no’?”, she’s pretty much fucked if she says she did not. This is not true. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/75 "2015-08-29T21:56:49Z")
> [@bb49](#): > > Sexual harassment will never end, not so long as men continue to be men and women continue to be women. This is no different than saying that crime will never be completely eliminated. While it might be true, it’s pretty much a non sequitur. > [@](#): > > In other words, vive la differance. And this is pretty much a disgusting thing to say in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Cara\_mel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@Cara\_mel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cara_mel)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/76 "2015-08-30T03:10:17Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I can’t say what is in his head but I interpret it to be a comment on the mindset of car salesmen. If they are the type of person who believes that no means yes with customers they will likely have that opinion with women. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I didn’t have to read past the first sentence of your OP, but this post makes me question your veracity. I’d need to see pictures of this dealership where women are not sexually harassed. I was under the impression it was required by law. > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > My dad has worked at a car dealership for 30 years. He started out as a salesmen, and was the best one there for several years in a row. > > Good to know you think they’re all sexual harassers. Thanks **enalzi**. My dad also had a 30 year career as a used car manager in a few dealerships around here, and yeah, the stereotype does get a bit old. My dad was a great guy and well liked wherever he worked. There’s no difference between a car dealership and any other workplace, in my experience. Salesmen of any sort bring a certain amount of charm to the table, but that doesn’t necessarily equal skeeviness. The sales manager in the OP does sound mighty crude, though. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/77 "2015-08-30T10:37:23Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > When he flirts with her have her say “Bob, I’d love to sit on your face” > > Then after a bit of a pause, then say “Because I’ pretty damn sure your nose is bigger than your dick…and probably gets used more often too” What does that even mean? He’s a brown noser? So what? Saying someone has a small dick doesn’t have much impact when you’re still offering sexual favors. I googled that line and it popped up on a bunch of “best comebacks to sexist comment” type articles. Somehow, it _wasn’t_ the worst one. It’s like these writers are going out of their way to reinforce the “women aren’t funny” stereotype. For anti-lulz, here’s the worst one I found: > [@](#): > > Man: “Nice tits.” > Me: “If you’re going to be a sexist pig at least be accurate. I have fantastic breasts.” ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2015, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/78 "2015-08-30T11:53:04Z")
Perhaps officials might ask “did you tell him to stop?” but that doesn’t mean the victim is expected to fix everything directly. It could just mean they want as much information about what happened as practically possible. If they ask what day the offense occurred, is that supposed to mean that harassment is only prohibited on certain days? I keep hearing, everyplace it is discussed carefully and responsibly, that it’s the employer’s responsibility to provide an environment that isn’t hostile and doesn’t allow harassment. Asking questions is just asking questions. If this employer did dig in their heels for some dumb reason, then that would have been a whole new problem. We should not be persuading all the victims who happen to be reading that they are supposed to privately and individually engage the harasser further. How terrible would that be? ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/79 "2015-08-30T12:21:59Z")
The reason I suggested saying something to the jerk was twofold. First off, women really do need to be more assertive in situations like this. Not confrontational, not bitchy, not threatening, just upfront and honest “I do not like what you said to me. Don’t do it again.” Simple language, simple message. Secondly, and related to the first, if your initial reaction is to tell someone higher up, you may give the impression that you’re a spoiled little kid running to mommy whenever things don’t go your way. Yes, the boss needs to know, but before that, the jerk needs to know that you’re not going to stand for any jerkery. Threats of violence are entirely different and definitely need to be taken to the next level immediately. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125/80 "2015-08-30T13:48:07Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Again, incorrect. The harassee is under no obligation to try to stop the harassment before going to the boss. I have no idea what the law says, but I know lots of socially clueless people, and I side with the “tell the guy to stop” camp. I think it is helpful to directly tell someone, preferably in front of others, that you find his statement socially unacceptable. > [@FairyChatMom](#): > > The reason I suggested saying something to the jerk was twofold. First off, women really do need to be more assertive in situations like this. Not confrontational, not bitchy, not threatening, just upfront and honest “I do not like what you said to me. Don’t do it again.” Simple language, simple message. > > Secondly, and related to the first, if your initial reaction is to tell someone higher up, you may give the impression that you’re a spoiled little kid running to mommy whenever things don’t go your way. Yes, the boss needs to know, but before that, the jerk needs to know that you’re not going to stand for any jerkery. > > Threats of violence are entirely different and definitely need to be taken to the next level immediately. Yeah, this, too. I’d tell the boss, or go to hr, when he continued after being asked to stop, of course. And I’d also update my resume. I gather she already told her boss. I hope it all works out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2015-can-we-stop-with-the-sexual-harassment-at-work-already/729125.md?page=5)