# Its 2019, are Roman Numerals used anywhere other than the Super Bowl? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 3, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914 "2019-02-03T22:51:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914/61 "2019-02-12T02:03:27Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Thanks **DPRK**. I was unaware that the prefix subtraction went back that far. No doubt if we had dates for all the classic Roman texts, we could pinpoint when it was invented. I think it’s obvious that Roman numerals originally didn’t have it. You can read about it in [the book I referenced](https://archive.org/details/historyofmathema031897mbp/page/n73): > [@](#): > > The subtractive principle is found in certain cases like that of IV for 4, that is, 5 - 1. This principle was, as we have seen, used by the Babylonians in the 3d millennium B.C. It was also used by the Hebrews, at least in word forms, but apparently not before the Etruscans and Romans used it. The Etruscans preceded the Romans in recognizing the principle and made a more extensive use of it. Given especially the Etruscan influence, it seems safe to say (but would require digging through texts to confirm) that the principle was already known pre-classically, so that they did originally have it, but you are right that it was obviously not consistently applied. > [@](#): > > I may have been mixing the prefix thing with the use of M = 1000. _That_ I know was a late invention. There was a set of symbols for higher numbers, those from 500 on up, that are not taught in schools today, probably because they weren’t in universal usage. But I understand the use of D = 500 comes from [this system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals#Apostrophus) That, or a couple of other theories mentioned in the book and/or the Wikipedia article. I wonder what the latest research has to say about it… ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914/62 "2019-02-12T03:00:00Z")
At the height of the Roman Empire, how high a number would the Romans have a need to count to? What were they counting? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914/63 "2019-02-12T03:16:28Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > At the height of the Roman Empire, how high a number would the Romans have a need to count to? What were they counting? Legions, supplies for legions, agricultural production, tax receipts, assets, debts, water supplies, grain storage, distances, … those are my first guesses ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914/64 "2019-02-12T03:45:34Z")
Did they need a “letter” (number) for 1 million? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914/65 "2019-02-12T13:09:40Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Regular form for 48 is XLVIII, so you don’t have to worry about 7 letter numerals. Ah, but 38 you’re stuck with XXXVIII. I suspect a typo on **ftg** ’s part. I was trying to work out a scheme of using both sides of a 14-segment for the Is but that would save only one anyway, and you still have the issue of a lot of dark between I and XXXVIII. The matrix idea is better but trickier to implement. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914/66 "2019-02-12T16:40:48Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Did they need a “letter” (number) for 1 million? Such numbers _could_ easily have been denoted by, e.g., using the apostrophus principle or a vinculum, but we would need palaeographic or epigraphic evidence that such forms were actually used for a million (I have no idea). The engraver of [this column](https://www.livius.org/pictures/italy/rome/rome-forum-romanum/rome-forum-rostra/rome-forum-romanum-columna-rostrata-inscr-cm/) did not feel the need to use such a symbol (note that predates the Empire). Elsewhere we find sums of millions and even hundreds of millions of sesterces written out in words, e.g. HS. quater decies = sestertiūm quater decies centena milia = HS. 1400000; HS LX = HS 6000000; in such cases units of 100000 are understood. That does not really answer the question of whether a Roman banker or accountant might have felt the need to use such a symbol in the course of doing arithmetic. I wonder whether any written scratch-work has survived? Smith asserts that “The Romans had relatively little need for large numbers, and so they developed no general system for writing them… What they ordinarily did, if they used numerical symbols at all, was to take some such forms as the following… To represent larger numbers, these forms were repeated.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914/67 "2019-02-12T19:25:22Z")
Waterline marks on some vessels: [![](https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/3430a58ec89e4f6bbfd191ebc31f8016/roman-numerals-on-ship-bow-a4c1x1.jpg) ](https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/3430a58ec89e4f6bbfd191ebc31f8016/roman-numerals-on-ship-bow-a4c1x1.jpg) > **[Waterline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterline#Plimsoll)** > > The waterline is the line where the hull of a ship meets the surface of the water. Specifically, it is also the name of a special marking, also known as an international load line or Plimsoll line (positioned amidships), that indicates the draft of the ship and the legal limit to which a ship may be loaded for specific water types and temperatures in order to safely maintain buoyancy, particularly with regard to the hazard of waves that may arise. Varying water temperatures will affect a ship' Fo... The latest watercraft to bear a time-honored name: [http://www.commodoresboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Gypsy-Blue-4.jpg](http://www.commodoresboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Gypsy-Blue-4.jpg) [![](http://www.cadenceofthesea.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/IMG_0494.jpg) ](http://www.cadenceofthesea.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/IMG_0494.jpg) [![](http://ianadamsphotography.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Goodtime-III-Stern-View.jpg) ](http://ianadamsphotography.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Goodtime-III-Stern-View.jpg) Vatican City ATMs?: [https://www.ptraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Latin-ATM-Vatican-with-Romans-by-Dasza-Traveler.jpg](https://www.ptraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Latin-ATM-Vatican-with-Romans-by-Dasza-Traveler.jpg) > [@DesertDog](#): > > …I remember seeing the MM copyright dates and thinking how odd they looked… Mars, Inc. liked the year 2000 very much: [https://img0.etsystatic.com/219/0/13015909/il\_340x270.1419936556\_c8ut.jpg](https://img0.etsystatic.com/219/0/13015909/il_340x270.1419936556_c8ut.jpg) > [@Acsenray](#): > > Legions, supplies for legions, agricultural production, tax receipts, assets, debts, water supplies, grain storage, distances, … those are my first guesses Tallying Livia’s lovers, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-2019-are-roman-numerals-used-anywhere-other-than-the-super-bowl/828914.md?page=3)