# It's a bad movie because the characters behave badly **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 8, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032 "2018-04-08T18:14:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/21 "2018-04-09T14:36:22Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > But the misunderstanding is going on right in this thread. Ferris was a sociopath and narcissist. Of course he was, but that doesn’t matter. I found the movie funny and entertaining. I didn’t want to _be_ Ferris, I didn’t want to kick my principal in the face, etc. Those things are in the movie because the movie’s creators found them funny, and I agreed enough that I found it funny, too. It’s fantasy and silliness. > > It can be a fun thought game to apply real life rules to works of fiction, but viewers should know that a movie can be enjoyable and meaningful without following those rules, and can often make strong statements by breaking those rules. No one here has said that _Ferris Bueller’s Day Off_ is a bad movie simply because the title character behaves badly or even because he’s a bad person. That’s a strawman. The discussion of _Ferris Bueller’s Day Off_ in this thread involves a more nuanced difference of opinion about how Ferris is depicted. I covered this in my previous post: > [@Lamia](#): > > When people object to bad behavior in movies, it’s usually because they believe the movie is glorifying or normalizing this behavior. Reasonable people can have differences of opinion as to whether a particular movie crosses this line. People can even object to a movie that you think is fine without wanting everything to be a simple morality play. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/22 "2018-04-09T15:58:01Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I think nearly everyone gets this, though. I very rarely hear adults express a moral objection to a movie simply because it _depicts_ bad behavior or bad people, and those who do are usually kind of nutty. Any reasonably sophisticated adult understands that the filmmakers aren’t necessarily endorsing everything that happens onscreen. When people object to bad behavior in movies, it’s usually because they believe the movie is glorifying or normalizing this behavior. Reasonable people can have differences of opinion as to whether a particular movie crosses this line. People can even object to a movie that you think is fine without wanting everything to be a simple morality play. > > I haven’t read the Molly Ringwald article yet, but it doesn’t surprise me if she thinks some of her 1980s movies do glorify bad behavior. _Sixteen Candles_ in particular seems like a movie that doesn’t just depict rape culture and racist humor, but considers the behaviors depicted to be harmless fun for all involved. OK, then I’m pretty sure there are a lot more “kind of nutty” people in the world than you think there are. And (not having read the article yet either) I don’t think actors are necessarily immune from that particular brand of nuttiness either. Some people really do view movies - and real life - as a simple morality play. Maybe it’s because they’ve been trained to do so; maybe it’s because that’s just the way they are; I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/23 "2018-04-09T16:02:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I always saw Ferris Bueller as a classic trickster figure - a Robin Goodfellow, Ananzi, Br’er Rabbit, or Bugs Bunny. Tricksters may bend or break the rules and tweak the noses of authority, but they never really hurt anyone who doesn’t deserve it. They’re good-natured agents of chaos. I think you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/24 "2018-04-09T16:09:26Z")
I think the example of a writer or director making a racist scene is not as simple as it sounds, because writers and directors are making creative decisions. I don’t think it’s always easy to tell what’s a creative decision and what’s a prejudice - we are claiming to read their minds. For example, let’s say a director consciously decides “Hey, let’s play this scene as if we’re all a bunch of racists”. That can create an effect on the screen that wouldn’t have happened if the director had only said “Keep in mind that your character and his character are racists”. But _neither one_ is morally the same as if a director and a cast all accidentally act like racists because they **are** racist and none of them had even realized there was a decision to be made. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/25 "2018-04-09T16:59:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I always saw Ferris Bueller as a classic trickster figure - a Robin Goodfellow, Ananzi, Br’er Rabbit, or Bugs Bunny. Tricksters may bend or break the rules and tweak the noses of authority, but they never really hurt anyone who doesn’t deserve it. They’re good-natured agents of chaos. He steals and later destroys an expensive and treasured vehicle and then permits his ‘friend’ to accept exclusive blame for it. It is portrayed in the film as being acceptable because Cameron’s father is emotionally distant and neglectful, and that somehow this incident will rectify the deficiencies in that relationship, but realistically there is no way this goes well for Cameron. The universe that Ferris Bueller is populated by morons, nincompoops, and suckers which are specifically crafted to make Ferris Bueller look clever even though he’s really about as shrewd as your typical eight year old. Oh, he faked an illness by claiming to have stomach cramps and licking his palms? What parent is actually fooled by this? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/26 "2018-04-09T17:18:52Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > w.r.t. redemption arcs, specifically - for me, a character who was a serial killer needs to do a lot more redemption than a character who shoplifted some records. When someone gives an arc more appropriate to the latter for a character who was the former, it tells me that the creators really don’t recognize that it was really bad behavior. As I read the article, something like this seems to be Ringwald’s issue with the behavior of the Bender character in _The Breakfast Club_. Not that Bender is a serial killer, but that he doesn’t do enough to _earn_ his redemption. He spends most of the movie alternately harrassing or viciously belittling Ringwald’s character. He never apologizes, and indeed never seems to show much remorse at all, and yet at the end he “gets the girl.” Or at least he gets a kiss and, IIRC, one of her earrings–it’s been years since I’ve watched the film. I can certainly see how watching this with 2018 eyes, as well as the eyes of a mother–the article was prompted by watching the movie with her young daughter–might make Ringwald feel uncomfortable. After the way he’s treated her, why should Claire respond this way? It didn’t feel earned to me, either. It smacks of “The Couples Have to Pair Up Because It’s the End of the Movie” style writing, with, as you say, no real recognition of just how badly Bender has treated her. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/27 "2018-04-09T17:25:25Z")
The characters could all act badly and I might still enjoy the movie. If the characters all act _stupidly_, I’m likely to lose interest. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/28 "2018-04-09T17:26:26Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > One of the smaller reasons I dislike a lot of action movies is because of their attitudes to collateral damage, all those innocent bystanders who get maimed or killed (usually by implication, the movies usually don’t even have the guts to show the actual carnage, only the vehicles or buildings destroyed). It’s generally worse with superhero movies, apparently the only beings who count are the superheroes themselves and possibly their loved ones. I’m the exact opposite, it bothers me in the extreme when the hero gets blamed for collateral damage when non action would have lead to magnitudes worse results. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/29 "2018-04-09T19:15:59Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > The opposite may be true. If there is a power failure and the audience gets up and leaves without seeing the last ten minutes of the picture, it can still be judged as a great or not-great movie. The picture is the sum of its parts, and and the quality of the film is based not just on how the audience reacts to some of the characters, but a good film (a work of art) will reflect good artists all the way through the credits, including the color timer and the foley editor. There are whole genres of youtube videos with titles like “top 10 great movies ruined by terrible endings.” The better ones go into critical analysis of why the ending breaks the movie. I was never happy with the ending of No Country for Old Men, because I felt like it was just contrived to deliver punishment to the main bad. I read something that talked about how it was showing the randomness of tragedy, like the coin flips, but I still felt like it was unearned. Whats-his-name had always been so careful and deliberate, and then has an accident? The same with every episode of Law and Order where the accused gets off, and is then gunned down on the court room steps. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/30 "2018-04-09T19:23:26Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > This is what I have a problem with, I guess. I often have a hard time separating the idea of the movie accepting a behavior with the behavior being accepted internal to the story. There are clearly differences. > > In the article she mentions Porky’s, which was clearly a movie which had the intent of showing some topless women and making some crude jokes, with no respect for the women in the story. I’d contrast that to something like American Pie, which also showed some topless women and made crude jokes. However, as much as the characters in the movie didn’t always show respect to women, by letting the female characters develop and have their own personality, the movie showed them some respect. Those are just teen sex comedies, so yeah, women are always going to be treated badly, but there are still degrees and nuance. > > I don’t remember Sixteen Candles much, but yes, the scene in Revenge of the Nerds was always troublesome to me. In the movie the female character didn’t mind sex by deception, so I guess internal to the story it wasn’t rape? It just doesn’t ring true to me that a woman would be so accepting of accidentally (on her part) having sex with somebody she previously was repulsed by. (It takes all kinds, and if your kink is having sex with random dudes in masks, then I’m not talking about you.) > > The hypothetical to this would be, the woman in Sixteen Candles is upset, unconscious, etc. and the dude tells his friends, “I just banged this drunk chick,” and they’re all congratulatory. I can see that as being appropriate to a story because, hey look, here is some rape culture. Even if the movie doesn’t give the guy any repercussions, because, hey look, rape culture, the movie might not be glorifying the behavior, even if the characters in the movie do. Uhm…if anyone is getting repercussions in Sixteen Candles its the 18 year old woman who statutory raped the drunk 14 year old. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/31 "2018-04-09T19:34:01Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > As I read the article, something like this seems to be Ringwald’s issue with the behavior of the Bender character in _The Breakfast Club_. Not that Bender is a serial killer, but that he doesn’t do enough to _earn_ his redemption. He spends most of the movie alternately harrassing or viciously belittling Ringwald’s character. He never apologizes, and indeed never seems to show much remorse at all, and yet at the end he “gets the girl.” Or at least he gets a kiss and, IIRC, one of her earrings–it’s been years since I’ve watched the film. That’s what I got from the article, too, but Ringwald even says that it took until she was 30 to realize she should avoid men that treat her badly. I always took the movie as meaning Claire was willing to give Bender a chance, even if he didn’t deserve it. Perhaps because she was inexperienced, an idiot, or just attracted to cute-dangerous-exciting guy. In my interpretation the movie isn’t forgiving his behavior because he has a bad home life, but rather agency is being given to Claire, and she makes a bad decision—he doesn’t “get the girl”, she picks him. I may be miss remembering things, because it’s probably been 20 years since I’ve seen Breakfast Club, but of all the brat pack movies, it was the only one I liked and bothered to see more than once. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/32 "2018-04-09T20:03:15Z")
Actors who appear incongruously “innocent”, like the long-ago Molly Ringwald, … Maybe sometimes it’s because they **are** that innocent. And maybe their early experiences in acting have turned out difficult and partly traumatic just because it’s traumatic and difficult for an innocent kind of person to get through life at all. Though getting through life in the movie business might be more difficult or traumatic than some other things. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/33 "2018-04-09T20:22:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > For example, both “Revenge of the Nerds” and “Sixteen Candles” end with very dubious sexual interactions. Today we might view them as rape or sexual assault. What makes those scenes unpalatable today is that the movie depicts those acts as benign or even with approval. That’s it, precisely. I don’t mind bad characters doing bad things. Or even good characters doing bad things (for a short arc), as long as the narrative treats those things as bad. When they treat bad things as good/benign, they lose me as a viewer. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/34 "2018-04-09T20:49:12Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Those are just teen sex comedies, so yeah, women are always going to be treated badly Why? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/35 "2018-04-09T20:58:46Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > And (not having read the article yet either) I don’t think actors are necessarily immune from that particular brand of nuttiness either. > > Some people really do view movies - and real life - as a simple morality play. Maybe it’s because they’ve been trained to do so; maybe it’s because that’s just the way they are; I don’t know. I’ve now read the article, and Ringwald doesn’t come across as nutty to me at all. She definitely doesn’t say that the movies she made with John Hughes are bad movies because they depict characters behaving badly. She seems quite thoughtful and willing to listen to other people’s views. In the specific case of _Sixteen Candles_, Ringwald explains the problems she has with the way the character Caroline is (mis)treated in the movie, but also includes a differing opinion from the actress who played Caroline, Haviland Morris. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/36 "2018-04-09T21:00:20Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Why? Because women are inconsequential and using them as fodder for what would otherwise be viewed as deeply disturbing treatment is funny. This of course does not influence the behavior or outlook of young men who grow up watching such films, and so it’s all just good fun. Also, Harvey Weinstein and Roman Polanski were just “boys being boys” and we should just give them a pass because they have directed and produced entertaining films. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/37 "2018-04-09T21:00:50Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > That’s it, precisely. I don’t mind bad characters doing bad things. Or even good characters doing bad things (for a short arc), as long as the narrative treats those things as bad. When they treat bad things as good/benign, they lose me as a viewer. Not arguing a point here, but just asking out of curiosity, how about authors like Philip K. Dick which typically have no “heroes” at all. I found it interesting talking with friends about the original and the recent reboot of Blade Runner. In both movies I assumed the typical Philip K. Dick model of no heroes, but several people had issues due to the protagonist’s action. IMHO I was expecting a dystopian story, where for a lack of a better term the _dregs of society_ were interplaying with themes on what humanity even was. But I was surprised that others didn’t view the protagonists as anti-heros, which outside of the pacing seemed to be the largest complaint. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/38 "2018-04-09T21:36:45Z")
I think it’s really hard to have a clear protagonist who isn’t depicted as being explicitly evil or a jerk or whatever, and not think that the work is portraying them as “the good guy,” or, at least, “an acceptably good guy.” It’s just something we expect, and if it isn’t clearly subverted, then that’s the message people take away. As for the OP: I also agree no one doesn’t get this. I think this is almost always a misunderstanding of what people think. They may themselves say this, but, drill down, and you’ll find they don’t mean it. People are not inherently good at explaining their tastes. Your reaction to art is almost always feeling first, and then trying to figure out why you feel that way, not the other way around. I admit that I like Ferris’s Day Off, even though Ferris is exactly the type of character I would normally hate. Somehow I’m able to ignore that and have fun, and not care that I think Ferris is horrible. I only can guess why: that I interpret the movie as a pure power fantasy and not something anyone would actually consider good. Hell, the fact that everyone is a moron may even play into that. It’s so unrealistic that it has to be just a daydream. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/39 "2018-04-09T21:46:53Z")
Stranger on a Train: > [@](#): > > and the consequences of having to clean up the resulting destruction is the motivation of the villain in Spider-Man: Homecoming. Not really, his motivation is that his job was stolen by the rich and powerful. He was very happy to have the contract to clean up the resulting destruction, that didn’t motivate him to villainy. But here’s a great example from the MCU: Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2. I find it very difficult to root for the Guardians against the golden-skinned guys, because Rocket was wrong in stealing the batteries from them. Despite some good aspects to the movie (Star Lord and Ego, Gamora and Nebula), I found this to be a major sticking point in my enjoyment of the movie overall. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032/40 "2018-04-09T22:12:21Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Not really, his motivation is that his job was stolen by the rich and powerful. He was very happy to have the contract to clean up the resulting destruction, that didn’t motivate him to villainy. I short-slipped the details in an effort to avoid an extended discussion, but yes, Toomes had the opportunity for a big contract and then the carpet was pulled out from under him in a bery underhanded and unfair manner (which was analogous to some of the machinations over the World Trade Center cleanup,and reconstruction). But my point is the film actually acknowledges that aomeone has to come in after the heroes are done and do all the hard world of demolition and reconstruction. > [@cmkeller](#): > > But here’s a great example from the MCU: Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2. I find it very difficult to root for the Guardians against the golden-skinned guys, because Rocket was wrong in stealing the batteries from them. Despite some good aspects to the movie (Star Lord and Ego, Gamora and Nebula), I found this to be a major sticking point in my enjoyment of the movie overall. The Guardians are explicitly not “good guys”; Quill is a thief and a former Ravager, Gamora is an assassin, and Rocket is a professional asshole with a violent tree as muscle. Only Drax is actually motivated by a vaguely noble cause, and even he is pretty indifferent, albiet largely through his legendary obtuseness. (“Nothing goes over my head! My reflexes are too fast, I would catch it!”) But the universe portrayed in the _Guardians_ films is pretty much lawless and amoral. Even the Xandarians, despite being presented as the most enlightened civilization, have an abbreviated judicial process and a thoroughly anarchistic prison where they dump the _Guardians_. The Soveriegn are, as Rocket describes them, “conceited douchebags”, and the ancient beings in the galaxy like Ego, The Collector, and The Grandmaster aren’t enlightened and benvolent intelligences but narcissistic assholes who think nothing or torturing, enslaving, or killing people for their own pleasure. Besides, if Rocket hadn’t stolen the batteries they wouldn’t have been able to detroy Ego and prevent him from consuming all other life. So Rocket would argue that he was totally justified even if he didn’t know it at the time, because that’s how he is. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-bad-movie-because-the-characters-behave-badly/812032.md?page=3)