# "It's a total victory for the health insurance industry" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 1, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273 "2009-10-01T20:36:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/1 "2009-10-01T20:36:36Z")
. . . says Dr Steffie Woolhander, a GP, professor of medicine at Harvard University and co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Programme (PNHP) about [legislation emerging from the Senate](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/01/lobbyists-millions-obama-healthcare-reform): > [@](#): > > The industry and interest groups have spent $380m (£238m) in recent months influencing healthcare legislation through lobbying, advertising and in direct political contributions to members of Congress. The largest contribution, totalling close to **$1.5m, has gone to the chairman of the senate committee drafting the new law.** > > \ > > “What the bill has done is use the coercive power of the state to force people to hand their money over to a private entity which is the private insurance industry. That is not what people were promised.” > > \ > > **The committee this week twice voted against including public insurance in the legislation** , with Baucus opposing it both times. > > Baucus took $1.5m from the health sector for his political fund in the past year. Other members of the committee have received hundreds of thousands of dollars. They include Senator Pat Roberts, who last week tried to stall the bill by arguing that lobbyists needed three days to read it. > > Baucus holds dinners for health industry executives at which they pay thousands of dollars each to be at the table, and an annual fly-fishing and golfing weekend in his home state of Montana that lobbyists pay handsomely to attend. They have included John Jonas, who represents healthcare firms for Patton Boggs, widely regarded as the top lobbying firm in Washington. Jonas, who formerly worked on the congressional staff, acknowledges that political contributions are intended to buy influence and says it works. > > \ > > The health industry permeates the process in other ways. At Baucus’s side, drafting much of the wording of the reform, was Liz Fowler, a senate committee counsel whose last position was vice-president of the country’s largest health insurer, Wellpoint, which stands to be a principal beneficiary of the new law. > > \ > > “ **The White House made a Faustian bargain with big pharma and big insurance** , essentially scuttling both of these profit-squeezing mechanisms in return for these industries’ agreement not to oppose healthcare legislation with platoons of lobbyists and millions of dollars of TV ads.” > > The pharmaceutical companies are apparently pleased enough that they are now putting $120m into advertising supporting the emerging legislation. A scare article or an accurate description of democracy in action? How does allowing vested interests to make contributions of $1.5 million to the chairman of the committee drafting legislation serve democracy? If it’s accurate, how do you stop this crazy shit? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/2 "2009-10-01T21:01:49Z")
They don’t work for us. They are paid for services performed, by the donors. Without campaign funding changes it will remain the same. But the system gives a boost to those who are in and receive money from them. Expecting them to change the laws and thereby jeopardizing their seats ,is asking a lot. It would take a huge push from the voters to actually make a substantive change to campaign financing. I do not see it happening. At every political discussion ,the audience has to bring up campaign finance reform. You have to threaten not to vote for any politician whe won’t go along with it. Otherwise we will not get our country back. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/3 "2009-10-01T21:08:53Z")
Well now we know how much health care is worth to Americans: $1.5M. What’s that, about $205 per person? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/4 "2009-10-01T21:25:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Well now we know how much health care is worth to Americans: $1.5M. What’s that, about $205 per person? Somewhere between that and a half penny. Closer to the low end. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/5 "2009-10-01T21:27:53Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > If it’s accurate, how do you stop this crazy shit? Whenever you involve the government in anything, intersted parties are going to try to influence the government to favor them. They’d be fools not to. They will always do it, and any reforms or rules designed to stop it just change the ways they do it, and make them more and more hidden and esoteric. Money, like flowing water, will always find an outlet. The only way to keep corporations from trying to influence government is to keep government small enough so that there’s no reason to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/6 "2009-10-01T21:42:24Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The only way to keep corporations from trying to influence government is to keep government small enough so that there’s no reason to do it. Corporations and special interests try to influence government because otherwise the government will prevent them from doing certain things. If the government is small enough that the corporations don’t care about the government, then the government would be so ineffectual that corporations will be able to do whatever they please. IMO that would ruin the country faster than government intervention ever could. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/7 "2009-10-01T21:52:00Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The only way to keep corporations from trying to influence government is to keep government small enough so that there’s no reason to do it. That doesn’t seem to be the experience in the rest of the industrialized world? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/8 "2009-10-01T22:01:10Z")
I’m a lot more concerned about the influence Goldman Sachs has inside the Federal Reserve and with our Financial Policy Makers ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/9 "2009-10-01T22:07:05Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The only way to keep corporations from trying to influence government is to keep government small enough so that there’s no reason to do it. Cite for a government in the world today where this is true? It seems to me that smaller governments in the world are actually more likely to get pushed around by people with money and large corporations than large ones. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/10 "2009-10-01T22:35:56Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > That doesn’t seem to be the experience in the rest of the industrialized world? Perhaps it’s both a blessing and a drawback to live in a country where the government uses a Westminster-style parliamentary system: – The drawback is that in most cases\* the elected Members of Parliament don’t necessarily serve their constituents–they serve their political parties, and vote the party line in the House of Commons. A member’s vote doesn’t always accord with the wishes of his or her constituency’s people, but that’s how things work. – The blessing is that this system allows individual Members of Parliament to be nearly impervious to lobbying. For a lobbyist/special interest group to be successful in getting what it wants, it must spend lots of money and energy and time lobbying all the party’s parliamentarians as a group–it cannot persuade individual members to vote against their party’s wishes with promises (or actual delivery) of campaign contributions, or other pork. - The exceptions tending to be the Members of Parliament who have been elected by their constituents as independents. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/11 "2009-10-01T23:20:25Z")
Nah, public program was voted up by a majority of Dems on the conservative Finance committee. It gets better from here, especially seeing as the final bill will be prepped by Dems only: [Harkin: No place for GOP at Senate health-bill table](http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2009/10/01/harkin-sees-no-gop-at-senate-bill-table/) > [@](#): > > Iowa Sen. Tom Harkin said today Republicans will not be at the table when the Senate merges the health-care bills from two committees before sending one to the floor. > > Harkin, a Democrat and chairman of one of the committees, also said any bill that passes Congress will include a government-run insurance option for Americans to buy. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/12 "2009-10-02T16:17:10Z")
I don’t think that’s democracy in action; that’s closer to meritocracy, where the “merit” is how much money you have. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/13 "2009-10-02T16:25:00Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Well now we know how much health care is worth to Americans: $1.5M. What’s that, about $205 per person? You divide the $1.5m by the U.S. population (to get $205 you would have had to have divided the U.S. population by the $1.5m), estimated at around 307m that is around 0.48 cents for each American (essentially the half-penny answer given above.) ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/14 "2009-10-02T18:00:18Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I don’t think that’s democracy in action; that’s closer to meritocracy, where the “merit” is how much money you have. a.k.a. plutocracy ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/15 "2009-10-02T19:46:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You divide the $1.5m by the U.S. population (to get $205 you would have had to have divided the U.S. population by the $1.5m), estimated at around 307m that is around 0.48 cents for each American (essentially the half-penny answer given above.) To count past ten, I have to take of my socks. To count past twenty, I have to take of my underpants. Sometimes simply arithmatic is beyond me. I can’t even blame it on bad education. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/16 "2009-10-02T19:55:26Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > [QUOTE=furt] > The only way to keep corporations from trying to influence government is to keep government small enough so that there’s no reason to do it. Cite for a government in the world today where this is true? [/QUOTE] Somalia? The only way to have a government too small to be worth influencing is to have one so small it can’t do much of anything at all. A failed state in other words. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/17 "2009-10-02T19:55:51Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > To count past ten, I have to take of my socks. To count past twenty, I have to take of my underpants. I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/18 "2009-10-02T20:05:34Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Corporations and special interests try to influence government because otherwise the government will prevent them from doing certain things. If the government is small enough that the corporations don’t care about the government, then the government would be so ineffectual that corporations will be able to do whatever they please. IMO that would ruin the country faster than government intervention ever could. Smaller != ineffective. It’s a lot harder to bend the rules this way and that to favor various interests when the rules are fewer and simpler. You pass law after law, all of them thousands of pages long and so byzantine that the lawmakers admit they don’t even bother to read them, and it becomes quite easy to get this or that provison slipped in to please this or that MegaCorp/Big Union/Special Interest. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/19 "2009-10-02T20:08:34Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > That doesn’t seem to be the experience in the rest of the industrialized world? Is that a question? Because if you don’t think corporations in Europe/Japan/etc. are actively engaged in trying to get government largesse and favor by all means, legal and otherwise, you are sadly mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273/20 "2009-10-02T21:13:13Z")
Unfortunately campaign finance reforms tend to run into free speech issues. Seems to me we’d need a constitutional amendment and government funding of campaigns. In short, not gonna happen. The US would have to collapse utterly and a new government form I think before we saw any substantive moves on campaign finance. The people who would change the laws are the very people who benefit from the status quo and like their perks. Clearly it is no longer a government “of the people, by the people, for the people” anymore (if it ever was but we are way farther into the abyss these days…congresscritters barely even pretend anymore to be for their constituents beyond pathetic lip service that by rights should see them struck by lightning for such false utterances that they care about the people). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-total-victory-for-the-health-insurance-industry/512273.md?page=2)