# It's a travesty to end someone's career over "chink in the armor" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474 "2012-02-21T00:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/241 "2012-02-23T02:36:54Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > I think it was just a tasteless joke that backfired in a way he didn’t necessarily expect. Yep. Most sports headlines try to do one of two things: make a joke or make something seem really dramatic. (Currently, the headline on the front page is “Rolling Thunder: Oklahoma City maintains control after dropping 72 points on Boston in the first half.”) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/242 "2012-02-23T03:10:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You are the product of college professor parents whose grandparents lived a Park Avenue/ Palm Beach existence, yet you lived in ghettos as a child. No, not as a child. See how people read things into people’s statements that aren’t there? That’s an important point. Go back and read my post and you’ll see that I didn’t say that. I was in my twenties when I lived in poor urban neighbourhoods (in south Minneapolis, Franklin and Chicago area, and in Jersey City). > [@](#): > > You are a cinephile who has never seen Blazing Saddles and who made it only partway through Gran Torino. Yes, but I’ve seen The Passion of Joan of Arc several times, along with recent films like Synechdoche, NY. I decided Mel Brooks was overrated after checking out Bride of Frankenstein; and the previews I saw for Blazing Saddles did not strike me as funny (my sense of humour runs more to Woody Allen). Gran Torino I gave a chance, as I do to all films with any critical “buzz”; but I couldn’t abide it as I said. > [@](#): > > I further suggest that if you ever find yourself in a job like that of the guy in the matter under discussion, that you make use of the Urban Dictionary on a daily basis I do find myself regularly looking up unfamiliar idioms on that site. But this phrase was not unfamiliar to me so I wouldn’t have looked it up. Clearly what is needed is software the equivalent of spellcheckers which watches for verbiage that might tend to be misconstrued by some. > [@Marley23](#): > > You don’t know Anthony Federico’s background (not everybody who works in journalism is a liberal with an upper middle-class upbringing) and this is itself a goofy, stereotyped view of Southerners in addition to being an inaccurate picture of racism. I never said I knew his background and I believe I provided that caveat every time I speculated about it. I wasn’t characterising Southerners generally nor racism generally, but people who use crude racial epithets. Many racists (like my upper crust grandparents) don’t use such terms, and many Southerners would also not be so uncouth. BTW, despite my grandparents’ wealth, I wouldn’t call my own upbringing “upper middle class”. I don’t think any of the homes I lived in growing up would be, then or now, at or above the national median in home value. Nor did we ever have expensive cars; we didn’t have a microwave, dishwasher, or colour TV (my mom got those last three things after I graduated high school in the late '80s). My sister and I had to wash our own laundry starting in grade school, and take turns doing the dishes. > [@Frylock](#): > > Just to let the OP know he’s not crazy, I too am very suprised to hear there is any region or demographic among which “chink” is a term in current usage. I appreciate that! So I turn the question to those who have acted as though it is widely prevalent: how are the two of us (and IIRC others who commented earlier) totally missing this? Are you sure you’re not overgeneralising your own experience as you accuse me of doing? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/243 "2012-02-23T04:00:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I appreciate that! So I turn the question to those who have acted as though it is widely prevalent: how are the two of us (and IIRC others who commented earlier) totally missing this? Are you sure you’re not overgeneralising your own experience as you accuse me of doing? Yes, pretty darned sure. Just Google the term if you don’t believe us. [Here’s Yahoo! answers](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090625111959AA4FfhG), for a start (which is not exactly the most sensitive place and represents a fairly “lowest common denominator” cross section of the Internet, in my opinion.) Every single answer that addresses the question confirms that it’s offensive. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/244 "2012-02-23T04:06:20Z")
Wait, just so I understand the argument: Is the OP claiming that “chink” is not offensive, or that it is not well-known, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/245 "2012-02-23T04:07:30Z")
The backlash alone is proof that plenty of people consider the word offensive, as is consistent with the intuition of most. Even if it’s not a word you hear everyday, it’s still something you would obviously denote as an offensive slur. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/246 "2012-02-23T04:08:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Lyle: Dock that chink a day’s pay for napping’ on the job](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWOF4sYx40E). > > [Olson Johnson: All right… we’ll give some land to the niggers and the chinks. But we don’t want the Irish](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw)! > > That’s not “commentary use”. That’s a character using the word in a derogatory fashion to refer to another character(s). Were you under the impression that _Blazing Saddles_ was some kind of documentary about the Old West, that it featured interviews with real people expounding on what life was like back then? A strange question to ask–I would have been more inclined to ask it of you in this context. I count it as ‘commentary’ use precisely _because_ the movie is a work of fiction. No actual person is using the term in a derogatory sense. Rather, the movie’s author is using the term in quotation marks, as commentary on its possible use. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/247 "2012-02-23T04:15:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Wait, just so I understand the argument: Is the OP claiming that “chink” is not offensive, or that it is not well-known, or something else? Not the OP but we’ve said some similar things in the thread, so I’ll say this. I was inclined until earlier today to think that basically _no one_ actually uses the term “chink” in its derogatory usage. I thought it was an outmoded term. If I had learned that at least some people do use it, I would have assumed it’s just a small subsection of the population. If it is true that the term is in common current usage, this is a complete surprise to me. I do not believe I have ever heard it used straightforwardly (by an actual person **Snowboarder!** ) in its derogatory sense. But to be clear, this is not to say that I thought people generally didn’t know it is an offensive term. I figured people generally know that. I just didn’t think anyone actually _used_ it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/248 "2012-02-23T04:21:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Wait, just so I understand the argument: Is the OP claiming that “chink” is not offensive, or that it is not well-known, or something else? I should have edited my post a bit. The OP seems to be arguing that “chink” is a quaint term and not that well-known a racial epithet. I should have said that every single answer on the Yahoo! Answers site confirms it’s offensive and strongly implies its currency (one poster says “i would honestly say its the 2nd most offensive derogatory word behind the n-word”). Not a single person chimed in to say that it’s seen as anachronistic, or that nobody uses it anymore, or anything like that. I can’t find any evidence on the internet of anyone saying the word is rare or outdated or anything like that. Quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/249 "2012-02-23T04:27:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yes, pretty darned sure. Just Google the term if you don’t believe us. [Here’s Yahoo! answers](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090625111959AA4FfhG), for a start (which is not exactly the most sensitive place and represents a fairly “lowest common denominator” cross section of the Internet, in my opinion.) Every single answer that addresses the question confirms that it’s offensive. Not what I asked…please, people, read my posts and don’t make me continually repeat myself, jeez! I was noting that some of us, while being aware of its existence in theory, and knowing it is very offensive, don’t ever hear it as some currently used slur. In fact, it is the fact that it is a very coarse, offensive slur (though its homonym is innocuous) that I take as the reason I don’t hear it. Or, what \*\*Frylock \*\*said. ETA: I would have thought a citation of the laughably insipid Yahoo Answers on this board of all places would be grounds to be tarred and feathered or at least chased out of Dodge! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/250 "2012-02-23T04:32:43Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > But to be clear, this is not to say that I thought people generally didn’t know it is an offensive term. I figured people generally know that. I just didn’t think anyone actually _used_ it. Okay, let’s assume that no one actually uses it generally. Now, does that preclude someone using it as a pun? This is where it falls apart for me: If the word is generally recognizable as referring to a specific race and then it is used in a way that is plausibly referencing a member of that race, and it’s used in a way that allows for the type of punning play on words that sports headlines are kind of known for (see the “Rolling Thunder” reference above), and it’s used about a player who is being widely hyped with a lot of punny sorts of headlines, does the fact that it isn’t commonly used as a slur relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/251 "2012-02-23T04:36:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay, let’s assume that no one actually uses it generally. Now, does that preclude someone using it as a pun? > > This is where it falls apart for me: If the word is generally recognizable as referring to a specific race and then it is used in a way that is plausibly referencing a member of that race, and it’s used in a way that allows for the type of punning play on words that sports headlines are kind of known for (see the “Rolling Thunder” reference above), and it’s used about a player who is being widely hyped with a lot of punny sorts of headlines, does the fact that it isn’t commonly used as a slur relevant? I am inclined to think it was an honest mistake, but I understand why the guy had to be fired (though I blame the foolishness of the human race for this, rather than blaming him himself). To think it was intentional would require thinking the guy _knew_ he was using a seriously derogatory term on an _ESPN headline_, which seems _much_ more implausible than the alternative–that he was just thinking “chink in the armor” and totally missed the relevance of the race of the person the story was concerning. I mean, people accidentally kill their babies by forgetting they’re in the back seat when they go to work. And I’m fairly certain this guy accidentally killed his job by forgetting that chink is a racial slur. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/252 "2012-02-23T04:37:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: I would have thought a citation of the laughably insipid Yahoo Answers on this board of all places would be grounds to be tarred and feathered or at least chased out of Dodge! And that was the entire point of citing Yahoo! Answers. It’s the hoi polloi of the internet. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/253 "2012-02-23T04:42:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I am inclined to think it was an honest mistake, but I understand why the guy had to be fired (though I blame the foolishness of the human race for this, rather than blaming him himself). > > To think it was intentional would require thinking the guy _knew_ he was using a seriously derogatory term on an _ESPN headline_, which seems _much_ more implausible than the alternative–that he was just thinking “chink in the armor” and totally missed the relevance of the race of the person the story was concerning. > > I mean, people kill their babies by forgetting them in the back seat sometimes. And I’m fairly certain this guy killed his job by forgetting that chink is a racial slur. So, when someone like Steve Lyons made jokes about, if I remember correctly and I may not, someone of Mexican descent sitting next to him and stealing his wallet, what would be the sort of thinking you’d apply? Because sports writers and commentators aren’t really unknown for thinking “Oh, I’ll tell this racially insensitive joke and it’ll be fine. We’re all buddies here.” As someone upthread pointed out, another sports commentator used this phrase about Lin, and yet another one said he has a small penis (another Asian “joke”). And sports headlines are known, well known, for having puns. Adding to that your belief that it is a generally known slur and don’t we have a case where the more likely explanation is that he thought people would laugh? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/254 "2012-02-23T04:49:25Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, when someone like Steve Lyons made jokes about, if I remember correctly and I may not, someone of Mexican descent sitting next to him and stealing his wallet, what would be the sort of thinking you’d apply? I’m inclined to think a professional broadcaster didn’t intentionally make an explicitly racist remark on national tv in 2006 unless he was drunk or something. > [@](#): > > Because sports writers and commentators aren’t really unknown for thinking “Oh, I’ll tell this racially insensitive joke and it’ll be fine. We’re all buddies here.” As someone upthread pointed out, another sports commentator used this phrase about Lin, and yet another one said he has a small penis (another Asian “joke”). Did the commentator use “chink” in its derogatory sense? How do we know? “Small penis” sounds like a pretty undeniable reference to a racial stereotype. > [@](#): > > Adding to that your belief that it is a generally known slur and don’t we have a case where the more likely explanation is that he thought people would laugh? It doesn’t seem that way to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/255 "2012-02-23T04:49:28Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > To think it was intentional would require thinking the guy _knew_ he was using a seriously derogatory term on an _ESPN headline_, which seems _much_ more implausible than the alternative–that he was just thinking “chink in the armor” and totally missed the relevance of the race of the person the story was concerning. I do see your point. I actually think the opposite is more likely–that he thought he could slip one by, or simply had a moment of bad judgment. Sports headline writers live for puns. I mean [case in point](http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2012/02/21/236572.jpg). “Amasian!” Really? Ugh. I just find it difficult to believe that “chink in the armor” is a natural headline for this story. It’s a bit of a stretch of an idiom to apply to the situation, despite the justifications upthread. The only way this headline works, for me, is if it’s meant to be a bit of fratboy-type humor, and an attempt to sneak the word “chink” past the editors with enough plausible deniability. I just think the headline writer misjudged the amount of offense that would be taken at it and his defense of plausible deniability. Of course, part of my incredulousness is colored by my own experience with sports writers and journalists in general. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/256 "2012-02-23T04:56:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I do see your point. I actually think the opposite is more likely–that he thought he could slip one by, or simply had a moment of bad judgment. Sports headline writers live for puns. I mean [case in point](http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2012/02/21/236572.jpg). “Amasian!” Really? Ugh. > > I just find it difficult to believe that “chink in the armor” is a natural headline for this story. It’s a bit of a stretch of an idiom to apply to the situation, despite the justifications upthread. The only way this headline works, for me, is if it’s meant to be a bit of fratboy-type humor, and an attempt to sneak the word “chink” past the editors with enough plausible deniability. I just think the headline writer misjudged the amount of offense that would be taken at it and his defense of plausible deniability. Of course, part of my incredulousness is colored by my own experience with sports writers and journalists in general. Makes sense, tbh. We’re all coming at this, i think, from backgrounds different enough in a way relevant to the issue, to make it hard really for any of us to find the others’ opinions intuitively plausible. Like I said, I’m surprised if this was intentional. But who hasn’t been surprised? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/257 "2012-02-23T05:09:40Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Makes sense, tbh. We’re all coming at this, i think, from backgrounds different enough in a way relevant to the issue, to make it hard really for any of us to find the others’ opinions intuitively plausible. > > Like I said, I’m surprised if this was intentional. But who hasn’t been surprised? And, likewise, it is conceivable this was an honest slip, judging by some of the posters here and their experience with the word. It is difficult for me to imagine given the context, but, then again, I can imagine myself accidentally using a word like “spook” or even “spade” in a headline and in a moment of idiocy, forgetting its racial meaning. Like I said, “Chink in the armor” strikes me as a bit too forced to be accidental, but there is a longshot outside chance it was innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/258 "2012-02-23T05:18:15Z")
Goddamnit. ARGUE! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/259 "2012-02-23T05:27:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, but I’ve seen The Passion of Joan of Arc several times, along with recent films like Synechdoche, NY. I decided Mel Brooks was overrated after checking out Bride of Frankenstein; and the previews I saw for Blazing Saddles did not strike me as funny (my sense of humour runs more to Woody Allen). Gran Torino I gave a chance, as I do to all films with any critical “buzz”; but I couldn’t abide it as I said. Hmmm. I think it’s interesting that you are a self-professed cinephile who gets film names wrong and who claims to like Woody Allen but not the other half of what Roger Ebert called “the two most successful comedy directors in the world today … America’s two funniest filmmakers”, especially as you now seem to be saying that you’ve seen at most 1 of the 11 films that Mr. Brooks wrote and directed. I assume you also have not seen the Tony Award-winning play he wrote and composed music for, since he is, in your opinion, “overrated”. I’ll keep all this in mind should you decide to post on another topic without your customary 7 or 8 year gap between posts. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474/260 "2012-02-23T05:37:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I wasn’t characterising Southerners generally nor racism generally, but people who use crude racial epithets. I know. There is no foundation for that characterization. > [@](#): > > Many racists (like my upper crust grandparents) don’t use such terms, and many Southerners would also not be so uncouth. Again, this is just stereotyping without relevance. It just adds a tinge of irony. > [@](#): > > BTW, despite my grandparents’ wealth I don’t care, I don’t care, I don’t care. > [@](#): > > Are you sure you’re not overgeneralising your own experience as you accuse me of doing? I haven’t discussed my own experience, so I’m pretty sure I’m not overgeneralizing based on that experience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-a-travesty-to-end-someones-career-over-chink-in-the-armor/613474.md?page=14)