# It's Absurd to Have the Right To Start a Pre-emptive War. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169 "2013-01-05T16:26:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/1 "2013-01-05T16:26:32Z")
I wish that the U.S. had decided against the pre-emptive war in Iraq. These type of wars have been fought in the past but it is clearly bad precedent. If the right to a pre-emptive war became an established rule of public international law, we would have the possibility of 3 to 4 different wars breaking out around the world in the next week. Currently, we have Pakistan targeting India. China targeting Taiwan. Israel targeting the Palestinians and so on and other hotbeds of potential war. It’s interesting with Iraq, the logic was we can defend ourselves by attacking. To me, this is warped logic. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/2 "2013-01-05T16:43:27Z")
I don’t know the situation _in this case_, but I think it’d be dangerous to have a blanket ban on pre-emptive military action. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/3 "2013-01-05T16:54:48Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I wish that the U.S. had decided against the pre-emptive war in Iran. Say what now? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/4 "2013-01-05T16:59:12Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Say what now? Note the last sentence; the OP clearly meant Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/5 "2013-01-05T17:00:48Z")
Do you remember that Secretary of Defense, Colin Powell basically said to an international community in a speech that he thought that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and that he intended to attack a neighboring country. It all snow-balled from there. Later that year the U.S. declared a pre-emptive war against Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/6 "2013-01-05T17:05:03Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Do you remember that Secretary of Defense, Colin Powell basically said to an international community in a speech that he thought that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and that he intended to attack a neighboring country. > > It all snow-balled from there. Later that year the U.S. declared a pre-emptive war against Iraq. The confusion stems from your use of “Iran” in your OP. I assume you meant Iraq, not Iran. Generally, it’s a good idea to correct such mistakes to avoid confusion among the readers. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/7 "2013-01-05T17:12:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The confusion stems from your use of “Iran” in your OP. I assume you meant Iraq, not Iran. Generally, it’s a good idea to correct such mistakes to avoid confusion among the readers. \*\*Pchaos,\*\*You can report your own post if you want a mod to fix it. Click on the little red triangle in the corner. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/8 "2013-01-05T17:21:40Z")
There is no such thing as a “right” to a pre-emptive war. The very question implies the existence of some sovereign authority with confers said “rights”. In reality, what exists is the potential to restrain states from committing such acts by threatening sanctions - the only really sure sanction being warfare itself by a state or coalition of states capable of defeating the offending state. So the question, in reality, translates into ‘if someone threatens to start a pre-emptive war, or actually launches one, is it right to restrain them with the threat of some sort of sanctions in return - perhaps even war against them?’ To which the answer can never be better than ‘it depends on the circumstances’. To my mind, it only makes sense to threaten such sanctions if the states or international organizations doing the sanctioning can offer some sort of guarantee that they can restrain the state against whom pre-emptive war is threatened. As in this scenario: -State A is a threat to State B; - State B in return is planning a preemptive war to eliminate that threat; - States C, D. and E, plus say the UN, wishes to prevent warfare by preventing State B from launching a preemptive strike. It is right to do so only in those states and organizations can realistically say to State B, “we can prevent the threat you fear from State A”. Otherwise, by threatening sanctions against State B, States C, D, and E (plus UN) are effectively handing the initiative over to State A. They are free to strike State B when and where they like. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/9 "2013-01-05T18:47:00Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > \*\*Pchaos,\*\*You can report your own post if you want a mod to fix it. Click on the little red triangle in the corner. I’ve contacted the moderator. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/10 "2013-01-05T19:05:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Note the last sentence; the OP clearly meant Iraq. Gracias. i got no further than the first sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/11 "2013-01-05T19:07:35Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Do you remember that Secretary of Defense, Colin Powell basically said to an international community in a speech that he thought that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and that he intended to attack a neighboring country. > > It all snow-balled from there. Later that year the U.S. declared a pre-emptive war against Iraq. You should have been here yesterday, or in this case, several years ago. We pretty much beat that dead horse half way to China. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/12 "2013-01-05T19:38:22Z")
If your military can only engage in defensive actions, you’re pretty much inviting everyone else to consider attacking you at the time and opportunity of their choosing. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/13 "2013-01-05T20:07:16Z")
There is a difference between preemtive war and preventive war. The first requires the threat to be more direct and is a form of defense (say, seeing your enemy building up troops at your border); preventive war has a less direct threat and is illegal in international law (unless the SC desides otherwise). The distinction between the two is difficult to make and is mostly determined by which side you’re on. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/14 "2013-01-05T20:12:40Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/15 "2013-01-05T20:21:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If your military can only engage in defensive actions, you’re pretty much inviting everyone else to consider attacking you at the time and opportunity of their choosing. If you have a vast arsenal of nuclear weapons, I’d say the time and opportunity of your enemies’ choosing will be never. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/16 "2013-01-05T20:41:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If you have a vast arsenal of nuclear weapons, I’d say the time and opportunity of your enemies’ choosing will be never. Well, not if they don’t believe you’d use them, and if they don’t in any case have hostages to fortune that can be hit with nukes, i.e. a country with cities. Evidently, Al-Qaeda wasn’t too concerned that a vengeance-minded America would toast… I dunno… Kandahar? Cairo? Riyadh? Mecca? Medina? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/17 "2013-01-06T11:46:30Z")
For me the issue is not the preemptiveness so much as the overwhelming boringness and lack of creativeness when it comes to the parameters of war. If you are at the point where you are willingly considering the horrifying absurdity of violence and death, why not first at least try a few other less horrifying and violent absurdities? Hell, just send a few Banksys in and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/18 "2013-01-06T12:01:16Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I wish that the U.S. had decided against the pre-emptive war in Iraq. These type of wars have been fought in the past but it is clearly bad precedent. Iraq wasn’t a pre-emptive war. It was a preventive war. > [@pchaos](#): > > If the right to a pre-emptive war became an established rule of public international law, we would have the possibility of 3 to 4 different wars breaking out around the world in the next week. Pre-emptive war already enjoys centuries of acceptance. > [@pchaos](#): > > It’s interesting with Iraq, the logic was we can defend ourselves by attacking. To me, this is warped logic. The thing you’re missing is a clear definition of pre-emptive. that allows you to make the distinction between Iraq and pre-emption. In order for there to be pre-emption, the other country must actually be about to launch an attack. > [@Rumsfeld caught lying (i know, it's nothing new, but i thought you should know)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-caught-lying-i-know-its-nothing-new-but-i-thought-you-should-know/234908/21): > > From the [Center for Contemporary Conflict](http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/rsepResources/si/aug02/middleEast.asp), the research institute of the Naval Postgraduate School’s [Department of National Security Affairs](http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/nsa/index.asp): > Preventive War vs. Preemption > Although the terms often are used interchangeably, “preventive war” and “preemption” are different strategic concepts. Preventive war is based on the concept that war is inevitable and that it is better to fight now while the costs are low rather than later when the costs are high. It is a deliberate decision to begin a war. Preventive war thinking seems to dominate U.S. planning about Iraq: it is better to destroy Saddam Hussein’s regime now then to deal later with a regime armed with nuclear weapons. Preventive war thinking, however, can turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy (treating war as inevitable helps make it inevitable). It also can lead to unnecessary conflict because few things are inevitable: Saddam could die of natural causes next week, producing a significant opportunity for the United States and its allies to shape Iraqi politics and policies. > > Preemption is nothing more than a quick draw. Upon detecting evidence that an opponent is about to attack, one beats the opponent to the punch and attacks first to blunt the impending strike. Preemption or launch-under-attack are strategies that can be adopted by states that fear preventive war. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/19 "2013-01-06T12:06:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is no such thing as a “right” to a pre-emptive war. The very question implies the existence of some sovereign authority with confers said “rights”. There is a recognized right of a nation to defend itself. Pre-emption falls under that. The “sovereign authority” is the general consensus of most people that nations have a right to defend themselves. Afaict anyway. Again, there’s been a recent deliberate attempt to conflate and bur the lines between preventive and pre-emptive wars. > [@Malthus](#): > > As in this scenario: > > -State A is a threat to State B; > > - State B in return is planning a preemptive war to eliminate that threat; By definition, State B cannot wage a "pre-emptive war against State A until State A is about to launch an attack against State B. You’re describing a preventive war which does not enjoy the wide acceptance of preemption. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169/20 "2013-01-06T12:12:59Z")
links are old \*\*Strategic Insight [Nuclear Weapons, War with Iraq, and U.S. Security Strategy in the Middle East](http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA524823) \*\*by James A. Russell and James J. Wirtz [INDENT]\*Strategic Insights are authored monthly by analysts with the Center for contemporary Conflict (CCC). The CCC is the research arm of the National Security affairs Department at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. August 9, 2002\*[/INDENT] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-absurd-to-have-the-right-to-start-a-pre-emptive-war/646169.md?page=2)