# "It's evening in America", says today's GOP **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 12, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415 "2011-03-12T15:36:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/41 "2011-03-14T04:40:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I will take that as a ‘no’ then. Shall we move on? > > Um…no. It’s your assertion. You’ve chosen not to back it up. So…nothing to see here. Thanks for playing…have some nice parting gifts. Ceramic dog. SDM board game edition. Dead thread… > > -XT Speaking of playing, I notice no one is actually refuting the OP’s impression of what the prevalent feeling is among Republicans WRT the future. So do Republicans express a lot optimism about the future, pointing to policy initiatives that promise to solve our problems? I hear a lot of doom and gloom about the deficit and about Obamacare, and it’s been awhile since I heard someone say, “we’re gonna win the war on terror”. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/42 "2011-03-14T04:44:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What good would that do? Businesses won’t create jobs until demand increases. And demand increases when you don’t have to charge as high a price for your product in order to meet your tax burden. Plus lower taxes allow you to devote more of your revenue to advertising, which increases demand, and to R & D, which creates better products and therefore more demand. Taxes are a burden which makes everything a business has to do in order to prosper and create jobs more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/43 "2011-03-14T05:16:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And demand increases when you don’t have to charge as high a price for your product in order to meet your tax burden. Plus lower taxes allow you to devote more of your revenue to advertising, which increases demand, and to R & D, which creates better products and therefore more demand. Taxes are a burden which makes everything a business has to do in order to prosper and create jobs more difficult. But taxes are less of a burden now than ever before in recent history, so where are the jobs? And aren’t taxes assessed on profit? If an investor is afraid he’s not going to make a profit at all then how can the tax burden be a worry? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/44 "2011-03-14T07:07:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because the businesses are the engines of the American economy. Those businesses benefitting mean that the economy in the long run benefits. At the same time I’m not against raising income taxes and also massive federal “sin taxes” on alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, and so on to compensate for it. So you want to tax wages & salaries instead of business incomes why again? If the businesses are the power, why shouldn’t our tax code tap that power directly? I don’t see that your argument proves what you think it does. In fact, I don’t see any real understanding of macroeconomics in it; forgivable in your case due to youth, not so excusable in the case of grown men with professional political careers who repeat this drivel as if it meant aught. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/45 "2011-03-14T07:25:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > “Long run” means the next few decades and “economy benefits” means greater economic growth. Also the problem isn’t that the richer are getting richer and the poor poorer but the rich are getting richer faster than the poor are getting richer. At least you admit that’s a problem. And the poor aren’t really getting richer, if we’re measuring domestic purchasing power. Health care is much more expensive in the USA than it was before you were born. > [@](#): > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax\_rates\_around\_the\_world](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world) > > Numerous European and East Asian nations have lower limits on corporate and income taxes than we do and they are often held up as models for us. Cites, for us often being told to emulate Spain, Iceland, New Zealand, Japan, or Korea? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And demand increases when you don’t have to charge as high a price for your product in order to meet your tax burden. Plus lower taxes allow you to devote more of your revenue to advertising, which increases demand, and to R & D, which creates better products and therefore more demand. Taxes are a burden which makes everything a business has to do in order to prosper and create jobs more difficult. I suppose we could let you deduct part of the cost of advertising & R&D. But advertising doesn’t exactly increase the supply of money in your customers’ pockets, so its utility in raising demand is limited. And the best R&D is done by the state, putting new techs into public domain so more companies can exploit them. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/46 "2011-03-14T12:18:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And demand increases when you don’t have to charge as high a price for your product in order to meet your tax burden. Businesses do not lower prices when costs go down, they take more profit. Business will charge what the market will bear. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/47 "2011-03-14T13:27:21Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Speaking of playing, I notice no one is actually refuting the OP’s impression of what the prevalent feeling is among Republicans WRT the future. That’s not the way it works around here. The OP made an assertion, and has offered nothing to back it up other than: \*Go look at what they are saying. \* We don’t operate under the “Prove that I’m wrong” principle here. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/48 "2011-03-14T14:12:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Businesses do not lower prices when costs go down […] Not necessarily (or at least only if we’re talking about fixed costs, or if the firm is quantity constrained in some way). A reduction in the cost of producing an additional item could easily imply that a lower price, with greater quantity demanded, may be profit maximizing. Compare for example the price of a new iPod today with a new iPod in 2004. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/49 "2011-03-14T15:48:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Businesses do not lower prices when costs go down, they take more profit. Business will charge what the market will bear. And that’s fine. Because they must also pay their employees, vendors and other costs what the market will bear. But you seem to underestimate how much pressure a lot of companies have to cut costs in order to stay profitable. > [@athelas](#): > > If things are good, it is right to believe that they are good. If things are bad, it is right to believe that they are bad. What is already is, owning up to the truth does not make it worse. Things are not always “good” or “bad” for everyone uniformily. And it is a tough sell making things worse for some people in order to make them better for others. > [@athelas](#): > > Which is to say that the way to defeat your political-tribal enemies is to prove that they are wrong, not that they make statements that elicit uncomfortable emotional reactions. I’m picturing a couple of cavemen arguing about how to equitably divide up a recent kill. After much discussing, eventually one of them says “you make a compelling and articulate argument. But allow me to counter with this witty retort…” [spoilers] …smashes the other caveman’s head with a rock. [\spoilers] The way to defeat your political enemies is to characterize them in a manner in which people will find objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/50 "2011-03-15T04:25:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Things are not always “good” or “bad” for everyone uniformily. And it is a tough sell making things worse for some people in order to make them better for others. Yep. This is true. But the question is, is there a point where we should make things a little less good for the comfortable to make things a little less dire for the unlucky? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/51 "2011-03-15T04:37:44Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because the businesses are the engines of the American economy. I like this analogy a lot. Do you know what happens when we allow a jet engine to keep all its forward momentum for itself rather than transferring some of it to the rest of the vehicle? It shoots off on its own, leaving the vehicle standing still. It’s super fast since it doesn’t have to help carry the weight of the rest of the vehicle, but it’ll eventually crash into a mountain. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/52 "2011-03-15T20:01:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But you can’t go by what he did in office, because he wouldn’t have been in office if he was running today. It’s typical for presidents to move to the center when they govern, and you could say very similar things about Obama if he had to run on his current record. A sitting president is the de facto nominee, and generally doesn’t have to run in the primaries. > > And note that his name is still invoked by Republicans as the goal of what politics should be about. If you can cite some credible Republican candidates who like to distant themselves from Reagan, I’d be very interested in seeing it. Reagan did that amnesty thing and Republicans don’t seem so keen on that. Reagan raised taxes several times (he had one huge tax cut in 1981 followed by a series of tax increases to try and shore up the resulting deficits that the tax cut created). Sure he cut more than he raised but over the course of his presidency, he raised taxes a dozen times. Republicans these days have drawn a line in the sand saying that we cannot do anything to reverse the effects of the tax cuts we have had over the last decade. I don’t think that a candidate could win the primary if he admitted that raising taxes was “on the table” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/53 "2011-03-15T20:24:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > “Long run” means the next few decades and “economy benefits” means greater economic growth. Also the problem isn’t that the richer are getting richer and the poor poorer but the rich are getting richer faster than the poor are getting richer. Average incomes have been treading water (on an inflation adjusted basis) for the last decade, while worker productivity has been rising. Labor’s share of increased productivity over the last ten years has essentially been zero. > [@](#): > > Which limits religious freedom by forcing poor churches to close down. Poor churches would have very very little taxable income, they are basically hand to mouth operations. The congregants aren’t really concerned about the the tax write off. > [@](#): > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax\_rates\_around\_the\_world](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world) > > Numerous European and East Asian nations have lower limits on corporate and income taxes than we do and they are often held up as models for us. And many of them have higher tax rates than we do. A tax race to the bottom is retarded. That doesn’t mean we can’t have tax reform but it does mean that trying to compete on tax rates is stupid when it is one of dozens of factors that influence economic growth. If you want to live in Estonia, then you should move there because I guaranatee you taht Wall Street is not about to relocate there because of the lower tax rates. We don’t need big companies to come here if we create the sort of environment for small and medium sized comapnies to become big companies. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/54 "2011-03-15T20:32:44Z")
> [@Jared4](#): > > If we’re so massively in debt, wouldn’t it make sense to make some cuts across the board AND increase taxes? Over the long run yes but not right now. Cutting WASTE is always very important and if you can make an argument that something is wasteful or inefficient then great, but cutting spending pruerly for the sake of cutting spending during a recession is bad policy. Same can be said for cutting taxes. In fact there are some tax increases that do more good (in the sense that they improve the economy) than any harm they might do (by reducing economic activity). > [@](#): > > Besides, if people were more aware and concerned with the course of the country, maybe they would take part more in the political process so these politicians can’t make the same mistakes again. If they are mistakes then they are intentional mistakes. > [@](#): > > But too many people here have very short memories. More importantly too many people have a flimsy grasp of economics which allows Republicans to bamboozle them. How else do you explain cutting taxes on the top 2% in the name of preserving a weak economic recovery while cutting federal spending that everybody agrees is not wasteful despite the fact taht it will slow the economy and increase unemployment? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/55 "2011-03-15T20:36:14Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Most all the doom and gloom from conservatives comes from the idea that we are killing each other with kindness. Once we learn to turn a hard eye to our fellowman’s suffering and lighten the national sled so it can travel faster, goes the thinking, there will be plenty of prosperity for the deserving among us. And fuck the rest. I think the argument continues: And more people will endeavor for the prosperity once the load is lightened. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415/56 "2011-03-15T20:39:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And demand increases when you don’t have to charge as high a price for your product in order to meet your tax burden. Plus lower taxes allow you to devote more of your revenue to advertising, which increases demand, and to R & D, which creates better products and therefore more demand. Taxes are a burden which makes everything a business has to do in order to prosper and create jobs more difficult. Except for a couple of years in the late 80’s early 90’s, taxes haven’t been this low since the Great Depression. Where is all the frikking prosperity? Besides, we generally only tax net income. Reducing taxes is generally an inefficient means of solving a demand problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-evening-in-america-says-todays-gop/574415.md?page=2)