# It's fun to shoot people. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259 "2005-02-03T21:43:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/21 "2005-02-04T07:39:56Z")
to make a comment like that, it only goes to show how far away the soldier is from reality. … _insert double take_ ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/22 "2005-02-04T08:09:00Z")
> [@Tapioca Dextrin](#): > > He’s been [officially rebuked](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4234751.stm), but is this the standard we should expect from the USMC? Uh, yeah. Those uniforms they’re wearing don’t mark them as Boy Scouts and those ribbons aren’t merit badges. You may be shocked to realize that we have people who have dedicated their careers to killing people and breaking things. Of the two quotes I don’t find either one to be particularly offensive. I expect a Marine to be eager for a fight. I sure as hell don’t want one who is hesitant to enter the fray. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/23 "2005-02-04T08:31:34Z")
I can’t think of a better ambassador for present day United States. As you know the feeling in wide swathes of the North American continent on 12 September, was envy. Forget .40 calibre or 9mmm. Which of you can boast 4 whole passenger aeroplanes deployed as guided missiles in one single day _and_ bringing down 2 of the worlds’ largest buildings to boot. It’s an enviable record of destruction and I can see why the US had to start a war. Can’t have some foreigner lording that over you. But face it, there isn’t any but a slim chance of equalling that masterful stroke. Osama Bin Laden: undefeated champion of the world, where is he these days, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/24 "2005-02-04T09:36:49Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > As you know the feeling in wide swathes of the North American continent on 12 September, was envy. Which swathes of America? I don’t remember anyone feeling envy it was more or a shock, surprise, I was impressed with their ability to pull this off, and I was kicking myself for not taking them more seriously after ther first WTC bombing. > [@](#): > > Forget .40 calibre or 9mmm. Which of you can boast 4 whole passenger aeroplanes deployed as guided missiles in one single day _and_ bringing down 2 of the worlds’ largest buildings to boot. Why would that bring about envy? > [@](#): > > It’s an enviable record of destruction and I can see why the US had to start a war. Can’t have some foreigner lording that over you. But face it, there isn’t any but a slim chance of equalling that masterful stroke. Well, we’ve toppled two governments in less then four years since the WTC bombings. I’d say that’s a bit more impressive then destorying two buildings and killing a few thousand people. > [@](#): > > Osama Bin Laden: undefeated champion of the world, where is he these days, by the way? He did a great job of achieving his goals. Wait, were his goals to get America even more deeply involved in the middle east? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/25 "2005-02-04T09:52:35Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Which swathes of America? I don’t remember anyone feeling envy \*\*it was more or a shock, surprise, I was impressed with their ability to pull this off, and I was kicking myself for not taking them more seriously after ther first WTC bombing. > \*\* > Marc Yet, the parts emphasised seem to describe envy. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/26 "2005-02-04T10:05:57Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Well, we’ve toppled two governments in less then four years since the WTC bombings. I’d say that’s a bit more impressive then destorying two buildings and killing a few thousand people. Yes, and that’s the point of **sevastopol** ’s post. He’s saying that the U.S.'s response can be interpreted as “You call _that_ random death and destruction? You ain’t seen nothing, yet…” > [@MGibson](#): > > He did a great job of achieving his goals. Wait, were his goals to get America even more deeply involved in the middle east? You’re correct in assuming that his goal involves getting the U.S. out of the middle east. It’s not quite as simple as that, however. > [@](#): > > [Bin Laden’s Vision Becoming Reality > Juan Cole](http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/cole_bin_laden.htm) > > Bin Laden hoped the U.S. would timidly withdraw from the Middle East. But he appears to have been aware that an aggressive U.S. response to 9/11 was entirely possible. In that case, he had a Plan B: al-Qaeda hoped to draw the U.S. into a debilitating guerrilla war in Afghanistan and do to the U.S. military what they had earlier done to the Soviets. Al-Zawahiri’s recent message shows that he still has faith in that strategy. > > The U.S. cleverly outfoxed al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, using air power and local Afghan allies (the Northern Alliance) to destroy the Taliban without many American boots on the ground. > > Ironically, however, the Bush administration then went on to invade Iraq for no good reason, where Americans faced the kind of wearing guerrilla war they had avoided in Afghanistan. > > Al-Qaeda has succeeded in several of its main goals. It had been trying to convince Muslims that the United States wanted to invade Muslim lands, humiliate Muslim men, and rape Muslim women. Most Muslims found this charge hard to accept. The Bush administration’s Iraq invasion, along with the Abu Ghraib prison torture scandal, was perceived by many Muslims to validate bin Laden’s wisdom and foresight. > > After the Iraq War, bin Laden is more popular than George W. Bush even in a significantly secular Muslim country such as Turkey. This is a bizarre finding, a weird turn of events. Turks didn’t start out with such an attitude. It grew up in reaction against U.S. policies. > > It remains to be seen whether the U.S. will be forced out of Iraq the way it was forced out of Iran in 1979. If so, as al-Zawahiri says, that will be a huge victory. A recent opinion poll did find that over 80 percent of Iraqis want an Islamic state. If Iraq goes Islamist, that will be the biggest victory the movement has had since the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan. An Islamist Iraq might well be able ultimately to form a joint state with Syria, starting the process of the formation of the Islamic superstate of which bin Laden dreams. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/27 "2005-02-04T10:34:32Z")
IMO, the General quoted was stupid to be quoted saying as much but I totally (as a combat vet) understand where he’s coming from. Think of this - you train and train and train and train repeatedly and hard to do a certain thing, and never get to do it for real (I trained for over a year before I did a single combat mission). When you finally get to do exactly what you did all that training for, it is a hell of a rush. Add to that all of the highly scientific methods the US gov’t uses to train it’s troops for combat (especially the USMC) as well as dehumanize the enemy, and you’ve got the amazing ground troops we have who managed to destroy a much larger force in 3 weeks with a rate of advance that was the fastest ever seen in the history of the world. The problem is that this same mentality and training and trained reaction to violence and combat, whilst incredibly valuable in war, is not quite so great to have around on peacekeeping or occupation missions. Hence, while the troops we have are great, they are the wrong kind of troops for the mission at hand. We need cops, not Marines. And **Desmostylus** - thanks for the nightmares, mate. I love to think of OBL winning 'cause of the short-sighted idiocy of our leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/28 "2005-02-04T10:45:26Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Yet, the parts emphasised seem to describe envy. I guess you have a different definition of envy then I do. Oddly enough I can be impressed, shocked, and surprised with something without being envious. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/29 "2005-02-04T14:02:32Z")
I’d be outraged if he actually shot people for fun. But a comment from a Marine to other military personnel to the effect that he enjoys shooting Bad Guys strikes me as ill-advised, but hardly surprising. And before the indignancy squad gets on their horses again, No, not all Muslims are Bad Guys; the Marine was clearly referencing Talilban-type characters in Afghanistan, who, IMHO, if they do not surrender, our troops have every reason to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/30 "2005-02-04T14:18:24Z")
> [@Gadfly](#): > > James Mattis’ comments nearly made me physically sick. I really don’t understand such a reaction. We send our soldiers into terrible situations and they feel a wide range of emotions as a result. So long as James Mattis is shooting the people we want him to shoot, I’d say being happy to do it probably makes him far more effective than being horrified. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/31 "2005-02-04T14:53:51Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > I really don’t understand such a reaction. We send our soldiers into terrible situations and they feel a wide range of emotions as a result. So long as James Mattis is shooting the people we want him to shoot, I’d say being happy to do it probably makes him far more effective than being horrified. Fine, if he and others like him can spend all their time in active combat. Otherwise, I would hope that “wide range of emotions” would remain accessible to our military people. Or else we risk breeding a warrior class, a Spartan aristocracy that is going to have a divisive effect on our country. ---
**Author:** ![doomraisin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d78d45/32.png) [@doomraisin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doomraisin)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/32 "2005-02-04T15:08:00Z")
He’s a professional killer and he likes his job. What’s the problem? Aren’t we always told we’ll be happy if we love our jobs? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/33 "2005-02-04T15:09:50Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Fine, if he and others like him can spend all their time in active combat. Otherwise, I would hope that “wide range of emotions” would remain accessible to our military people. Or else we risk breeding a warrior class, a Spartan aristocracy that is going to have a divisive effect on our country. I don’t mind the warrior class - I think we’ve effectively had one for years and it’s not had a decisive effect on the country because they have been held in check by higher command. Higher command now is the problem, as they are encouraging all sorts of nastiness for the wrong reasons. I don’t want to hijack this into a Bush-bashing thread, I really really don’t, but if people at the most senior levels of command flout the basic rules of warfare and international law and act without regard to consequences, so will the lower echelon troops. We need people ready at a moment’s notice to go to faraway lands and do horrific violence to strangers to protect our freedoms. But those aren’t the same guys I want in Iraq now, talking to civilians and helping build a new country from the ashes of an old one. I’d much rather have a bunch of fat doughnut-eating beat cops from Boston and New York than a bunch of hyped-up trigger happy commandos. At least the cops have an understanding of cause and effect a hell of a lot better than the military seems to anymore. It’s scary that the General was this loose and glib; it’s guys like him who exert control over the true attack dogs that are his soldiers. If his example, and the example of higher command, is to get excited about being able to shoot at anyone they want and to blatantly disregard international law and treaties, then why are we surprised by Abu Ghraib? I expect better control from someone at his level, and think it’s right and proper to censure him. But I think the problem lies higher up. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/34 "2005-02-04T15:37:30Z")
I don’t understand the problem with Lt. Gen. James Mattis’ comment. Men like to fight. And while there’s a lot of “hell” associated with war, there’s also a lot of excitement. During a war, some people need to be shot. What’s wrong with having some fun and experiencing some satisfaction while doing it? Given the right circumstances, I’d probably have fun doing it too. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/35 "2005-02-04T15:46:25Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > It’s scary that the General was this loose and glib; it’s guys like him who exert control over the true attack dogs that are his soldiers. If his example, and the example of higher command, is to get excited about being able to shoot at anyone they want and to blatantly disregard international law and treaties, then why are we surprised by Abu Ghraib? But he isn’t excited about shooting anyone he wants. He was very specific about who he enjoyed shooting. He enjoys shooting at the Taliban who have composed a long list of horrible actions against the people of Afghanistan. If I had seen some of the Taliban’s work first hand, I might have learned to enjoy shooting at them too. We have no evidence here that this general commited any atrocity or violated any international law. I don’t see why he should have to sit back and pretend to feel sorry about what he was ordered to do and glad to do. Our society seems determined to deny some basic realities of war. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/36 "2005-02-04T16:28:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Cheeses Rice, like the terrorists don’t already have enough propaganda to use against us: “High-ranking American officer says Iraqis ‘have no manhood’ and ‘it’s fun to shoot them’”. Actual quotes. If only he were talking about Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/37 "2005-02-04T16:31:33Z")
Gen. Mattis made a remark. It was apparently off the cuff, and not carefuly rehearsed. It was not much different from what other people have always said about this enemy or that enemy. In my day, the slogan was “kill Charlie”. In my parents’ day it was “kill the Krauts”. Patton made the famous comment about “… the other poor son of a bitch …”. There was the famous “kill a Commie for Christ” in there somewhere too. What some people see as a callous indifference, or bloodlust is really not. It is often an effort to desensitize yourself so you won’t go nuts. It is a way to, in your own mind, see the other guy as being totally evil. So you won’t hesitate and get yourself killed. Some of it is macho posturing too - “I’m a bigger hard ass than you are”. Mattis should have chosen not to say what he did, but it happened. Soldiers are supposed to destroy the enemy. Some of them may say “insensitive” things. So what? They are soldiers, not politicians or diplomats. They are the ones who get stuck with the fighting, when the fancy and sensitive words of others fail. Who do you want fighting for you? Shakespeare and Mother Theresa or Patton and MacArthur? I would choose the ones who can fight, no matter what words they uses. We don’t have these folks around for their saintliness of sensitivity. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/38 "2005-02-04T16:52:20Z")
This war is being fought in a media spotlight. Making darn fool statements to the press scores points for the Bad Guys. We pay Generals to know better than this. All in all, highly unprofessional and unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![Bitterness\_Comes\_Standard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b19c9b/32.png) [@Bitterness\_Comes\_Standard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bitterness_Comes_Standard)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/39 "2005-02-04T16:59:26Z")
First off maybe it isn’t the smarting thing to say in a public relations atmosphere, but otherwise people need to understand that the military (at least the USMC), and war is something an average person, especially those who have never served, seem to understand. This is why the media does NOT belong in the war zone. They only show parts of what’s going on and not the whole story. What need is it for him to have been interviewed in the first place. This isn’t G.I. Joe type of warfare were no one dies, the good guys win without casualties, and innocent civilians aren’t even shown let alone caught in the crossfire. What disgusts me about the War in Iraq, besides the fact we shouldn’t have been there in the first place, is that they are trying to make it look like a public relations campaign. The military doesn’t promote you based on your public relations abilities. They promote you based on your job performance, your conduct, physical fitness score, and a couple of other issues. Granted you could say that it was bad public relations to say what he did, but to my understanding he didn’t break the UCMJ. He was specifying the “bad guys” not coming out with baby skulls as a necklace. As a former Marine I can tell you that the common response to a D.I. saying, “What makes the grass grow?” Will always get a “Blood! Blood makes the grass grow!!!” Marines are trained to be the best-trained military in the world, and the primary focus is to kill, and the love of killing. Period. There is a reason why every Marine’s 1st MOS is a rifleman. To quote Gunnery Sergeant Hartman from Full Metal Jacket: “God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see. He plays His games, we play ours. To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls. God was here before the Marine Corps, so you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the corps.” ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259/40 "2005-02-04T17:16:30Z")
I just hope 2 things: 1. That nothing ever happens to the Lt. General, as he is a soldier fighting for the U.S. No matter my feelings about the war, I hope he makes it to his family ok. 2. That IF he does get killed (Hopefully not) that the guy who does it, has as much fun doign it as the Lt. General is having too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-fun-to-shoot-people/288259.md?page=3)