# It's "He" goddammit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2000, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230 "2000-07-01T02:33:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2000, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/21 "2000-07-01T23:36:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Isn’t English technically a dialect of German? > \*\* No. German and English both originated as dialects of an older language. This language is usually referred to as “Germanic”, but it wasn’t German, per se. [armchair linguist tangent] There’s a problem with the word “technically” here - since there’s no firm definition of what constitutes the difference between a language and a dialect. However, in general if it meets **most** even if not all of the following criteria, it will probably be considered a separate language: [ul] [li]Lack of mutual intelligibility[/li][li]Association with a particular nation (often but not always a nation-state)[/li][li]Standardization, a/k/a formal rules[/li][li]Existence of a literary form distinct from the spoken form[/li][li]Significant syntactical differences[/li][/ul] There’s probably others that I can’t think of at this time of the night after this much alcohol. Anyway, I think it should be pretty clear from this list that whatever its history, English would **not** be considered a dialect of German today. [/armchair linguist tangent] ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2000, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/22 "2000-07-02T03:41:51Z")
Goddammit, **Alphagene,** you used to just mock the dumb guys. NOW you’re mocking the guys who don’t get laid! Let me know in advance when you receive the Nobel Prize, okay? When you start lashing out at alla us no-Nobel losers, I’m taking off for the Ozarks. ---
**Author:** ![Dumb\_Ox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dumb\_Ox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumb_Ox)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2000, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/23 "2000-07-02T06:17:25Z")
Thanks for the clarification, **ruadh**. Is it fair to say that, grammatically, modern English is more closely related to old German (I’m sure there’s a more accurate name) than to other languages, such as Latin? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2000, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/24 "2000-07-02T09:45:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Is it fair to say that, grammatically, modern English is more closely related to old German (I’m sure there’s a more accurate name) than to other languages, such as Latin? > \*\* The more accurate name is West Germanic. Yes, English grammar is derived more from West Germanic than from Latin. There’s a neat family tree [here](http://www.lonestar.texas.net/~jebbo/learn-as/origins.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Dumb\_Ox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dumb\_Ox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumb_Ox)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2000, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/25 "2000-07-02T16:40:06Z")
Interesting link, **ruadh**. But, uh… “Ingvaeonic”? What’s the derivation of _that_? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/26 "2000-07-02T21:20:51Z")
I use Spivak’s: e, eir, em, emself. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2000, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/27 "2000-07-02T21:47:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > [And whose to say Latin doesn’t have anything to do with English? Almost all of English is based on Latin and German, as I recall. > \*\* English is derived from several languages, but remains a germanic language. The derivation of english words are as follows: \*20% from Icelandic \*20% from French \*[I couldn’t find the other percentages that english owrds derive from, and I don’t have a couple of hours to spend online looking for them.] ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2000, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/28 "2000-07-03T00:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Discussing the thrilling world of Unix seems to be your speed. Tread carefully, Alphagene. Mock the one true OS at your peril. May the GPFs of a thousand GUIs infest your laptop if you speak evil of the shell! ---
**Author:** ![johnboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@johnboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnboy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2000, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/29 "2000-07-03T19:32:09Z")
Hey Fredo. I feel your pain. Unfortunately we have to deal with the phenomena known as “common usage”. Like how about all the idiots that drop the “H” from the word historical and preceed it with “an” or the dipshits that pronounce the word “harass” like hair-us instead of her-ass. The list goes on and on. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2000, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/30 "2000-07-03T19:56:10Z")
**johnboy** : 1) First of all, it’s “phenomenon.” Singular. You want to bitch about language, learn how to use it. 2) You want to live somewhere where grammar is prescriptive rather than descriptive, move to France. Or do you propose we take words such as “fax” and “microwave” out of the dictionary? 3) “Historic” with a silent “h” dates back to the 17th century. It prevents the guttural choking hiccup which results from saying “a historic.” Even M-W uses it with “an” in a sample sentence in its definition. I would wager that “honest” originally had a pronounced “h” as well, but it sounds equally bad with the article “a.” ---
**Author:** ![Byzantine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@Byzantine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Byzantine)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2000, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/31 "2000-07-04T00:53:19Z")
We’ve been doing it this way a hundred years so it MUST be right! 😉 “Almost all of English is based on Latin and German, as I recall.” English is voracious in it’s appetite for other languages (as other posters have pointed out). We take, borrow or steal from other tongues. I guess it’s like America in that it is the great melting pot. We meld from ALL languages. We are the equal opportunity language; we’ll take ANY word from anyone and make it work for us. It’s just the way we are! I’m pointing this out because on the one hand, I agree with you. It’s silly for anyone to be threatened by he, him, or his; however, by the same token, why are you so threatened by she, her, hers? If it really doesn’t matter than… why does it matter? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2000, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/32 "2000-07-04T01:46:12Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s it. I’m fucking sick of these stupid bastards who can’t understand that you > use the word “he” to refer to a gender neutral individual… > > All you man-hating dykes who insist on saying “She” can suck monkey dung. Any person who wishes at this point to capitulate and adopt the OP’S grammatical schema is hereby invited to register his acknowledgement of this rule. Any man-hating dyke who may be among them shall be asked to refrain from hurling his used tampons into the mouth of the beforementioned OP. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2000, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/33 "2000-07-04T16:53:02Z")
If there is one thing I cannot stand, damnit, it’s someone who doesn’t think before posting stupid shit like this OP. So let’s go through this bit by bit, shall we? Friedo, do pay attention. If you open your mind instead of your mouth, something useful might find its way into that feces-infested hole you call a head. “No, it’s not sexist, you hairy-armpitted tree-humping hippie dipshit.” So then I’m a hairy-armpitted tree-humping hippie dipshit? Good call, boy. “No, you most certainly do not say “Them.” “Them” is a fucking plural, dumbass. “Them” means MORE THAN ONE PERSON. If I see another worm infected piece of ferrit shit use “them” to refer to a single person I will piss in his mouth and refuse to stop until he admits that he enjoys it and calls me ‘Daddy.’” “He” refers to ONE MAN, fucktool. ONE. That’s why he, she and it are all the third person fucking SINGULAR, asswipe. So you’re assuming that A. those of us who use “them” as singular are females, then that thye are males? Anyone who calls you Daddy probably doesn’t know better. Your genes are lacking in the area of cranial matter. “All you man-hating dykes who insist on saying ‘She’ can suck monkey dung. It’s been ‘He’ for a long, long, long time. There is no reason to change it just because you are afraid of dicks and facial hair. Go take your Wymyn’s Rights bullshit to the kitchen and make me some fucking pie.” I don’t know about you, but I refer to women as “she” myself. I find that those man-hating dykes who are referred to as “he” take offense to it and would probably rid you of whatever penis and/or testicles you had without you even having to ask politely. As for pie, if you treat them right those man-hating dykes will give you lots of that . . . “And then there are those new age dumbass liberal editors who insist on changing correctly used male pronouns to ‘S/he’ or ‘Him/Her.’ Does anybody fucking realize how rediculous this looks? How do you pronounce ‘S/he’ when you’re reading out loud? ‘S/he’ is not a fucking word. No, you don’t have the right to go inventing words, dicksmack.” Actually, they do have that right and they do that quite often. Those editors probably know more about this subject matter than you don’t, so perhaps you should start liking dicks yourself so you can go suck theirs, which as of right now is about the most useful thing I can see in your mouth. And perhaps more “rediculous” than “s/he” is that someone who is trying to have an intelligent opinion, and failing, is misspelling such a radically basic word as ridiculous. Friedo, I do hope you payed attention to this, because unlike farm animal porn it serves to educate you as much as embarrass you. Now, be a good little boy, stop playing with yourself and your dog’s testicles, and go read a book. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2000, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/34 "2000-07-05T04:04:56Z")
Friedo, you wouldn’t have some, oh, I dunno, _issues_ lingering around, would you? See, no matter the genesis of a language, the sucker evolves over time and with usage. (Even French, which remains vital in spite of the hermetically sealed belljar placed over it.) But to continue… There’s one problem with using “he” as the default: it leaves out half the human race. Picky, I know. Not that it concerns me _nearly_ as much as it does you. But true fact, reading along, becoming immersed in the text and getting smacked across the chops with “he” to denote human can be a bit of a jolt, particularly if you’re a human-type who doesn’t happen to be a “he”. No matter how well historically footnoted and supported, it tends to be a tad exclusionary, as in, “not you, fool”. Oh. Not a big deal, even for a kickass feminist like me. Though rants like yours tempt me _soooo_ much to put on a deadpan rant in return, just out of sheer perversity. But as our late president so aptly put it, “But that would be **wrong**!” So take a breather, get a grip and get some perspective or we’ll start calling you “she”–just by default, doncha know. Veb ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2000, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/35 "2000-07-06T14:29:12Z")
Go fuck yourself, you **adam yax** felcher. (Sorry, was just looking for a place to use this.) Esprix ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2000, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/36 "2000-07-06T14:51:43Z")
As someone who edits text for a living, let me shed some light, rather than heat, on this topic. From earliest times, it was standard practice to use **he, him, himself, andhis,** to refer to a person of either sex. Since the 1960s, there has been an effort led by feminists to eradicate sexist vocabulary from the language. In my company’s style manual, we are urged to use **he and she, his and her,** and so on. I prefer not to confuse third person singular and plural pronoun usage by substituting **they** or **them** , not to mention that saying, “ **Each student should bring their backpack.** ” makes the speaker seem uneducated. ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2000, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/37 "2000-07-06T17:57:51Z")
Weren’t things simpler when women and men just used to grunt? Ug. ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2000, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/38 "2000-07-06T23:33:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Since the 1960s, there has been an effort led by feminists to eradicate sexist vocabulary from the language. And that’s a horrible thing, right? Very few things about post-modern culture are static. Get used to it. Like Veb said, language evolves, or haven’t you read Chaucer? Was the Great Vowel Shift a crime against humanity? > [@](#): > > saying, “Each student should bring their backpack.” makes the speaker seem uneducated. No, saying “hairy-armpitted tree-humping hippie dipshit” makes the speaker seem uneducated. Here’s a relevant link, by the way. [Is there a gender-neutral substitute for “his or her”?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_245b.html) ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2000, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/39 "2000-07-07T00:06:05Z")
My pet peeve in gender language (outside of adult women being referred to as girl) is when people refer to animals as he when gender is unknown or even when referring to a actitvity that indicates a female animal. It can safely be used to refer to animals. If you feel the need to refer to animals as he when gender is unknown, here is a hint: male animal generally do not lay eggs. I have seen several instances on television where a bird referred to as he laid eggs. ---
**Author:** ![Jo3sh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@Jo3sh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jo3sh)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2000, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/40 "2000-07-07T03:50:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\*As someone who edits text for a living, let me shed some light, rather than heat, on this topic. > From earliest times, it was standard practice to use **he, him, himself, andhis,** to refer to a person of either sex. Since the 1960s, there has been an effort led by feminists to eradicate sexist vocabulary from the language. > \*\* Not so. As I stated in an earlier post to this thread, “their” as a singular, genderless pronoun has been in use since at least the 14th century, and it was only in Victorian times that the use of he/him/his has been promoted as being more correct. Sorry, play again. This is proof that even copy editors are uneducated about our language. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230.md?page=3)