# It's "He" goddammit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2000, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230 "2000-07-01T02:33:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2000, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/41 "2000-07-07T04:01:49Z")
(Pause while Veb reels in amazement that AlphaGene somewhat agreed with him/her, even from pure pissant perversity) I was gonna say something profound about the Germanic roots of English/American (yeouch!) linguistic oddities, but flashed back to the hairy armpit tree-hugger thing and got lost in contemporary symbolism. (Germany is NOT notable for obsessive concern about arm pit hair, male or female.) Does it strike anyone else as hopelessly muddled when body hair gets muddled up with neo-whatever politics and deconstructionist interpretations of _talking the hell with one other?_ Call me hopelessly primitive, politically naive and at least 5 trends behind the wave, but is this futile or what? Hey, I don’t call you “she” if you don’t assume I’m “he”. Other languages incorporate this stuff; not seamlessly, but it keeps grad students in grants and away from the general public. Gender variations, politics and associated keruffles are one thing (ok, several, actually) but is just getting along without undue offense all that hard??? Used to being shot from all sides, Veb ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2000, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/42 "2000-07-07T12:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Since the 1960s, there has been an effort led by feminists to eradicate sexist vocabulary from the language. > And that’s a horrible thing, right? Very few things about post-modern culture are static. Get used to it. Like Veb said, language evolves, or haven’t you read Chaucer? Was the Great Vowel Shift a crime against humanity? Who said that the switch to non-sexist language was a horrible thing? not I. I said the change was led by feminists. Am I wrong? Men on their own would never have thought of it. Stop jerking your knee, Alphagene. For the record, I am pro inclusive language. You ought to read a post more carefully before you attack. > [@](#): > > Not so. As I stated in an earlier post to this thread, “their” as a singular, genderless pronoun has been in use since at least the 14th century, and it was only in Victorian times that the use of he/him/his has been promoted as being more correct. > > ``` > Sorry, play again. > > This is proof that even copy editors are uneducated about our language. > > ``` Watch who you call ignorant, son. If you have a problem, take it up with Fowler’s Modern Usage. Edited by R.W. Burchfield. 3d ed., p. 358., from which paraphrased the statement above. I will also quote Strunk and White’s The Elements of Style, 4th edition, p.60, " The use of _he_ as a pronoun for nouns embracing both genders is a simple, practical convention rooted in the beginnings of the English language." Merriam-Webster’s College Dictionary, 10th ed., says _he_ is “used in a generic sense or when the sex of the person is unspecified.” OK, I have cited sources, so shut up and sit down, Jo3sh. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2000, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/43 "2000-07-07T18:42:48Z")
For the record, I have been earning a living from writing, teaching, and editing for the past decade, so any self- appointed language cops would be wise to think twice before taking me on. If coprophagous wankers like Jo3sh wish to write condescending posts, then they should bring some knowledge of the subject to the discussion instead of spouting PC nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2000, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/44 "2000-07-07T21:00:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Who said that the switch to non-sexist language was a horrible thing? not I. I said the change was led by feminists. Am I wrong? Men on their own would never have thought of it. Stop jerking your knee, Alphagene. Jerking my knee? How is my response a knee-jerk reaction? And I’d imagine men **are** capable of concieving of gender neutral pronouns. Don’t they exist in some other languages? > [@](#): > > For the record, I am pro inclusive language. You ought to read a post more carefully before you attack. Oh, you’re implying my reading comprehension is subpar. Now who’s being condescending? Well pardon me, but that wasn’t exactly made clear in your post. You mention that feminists are trying to eradicte sexist language and then mention that you think using “they” makes people sound uneducated. So you are actually “pro inclusive language”. Fine. But it’s not like your post clearly indicated that. ---
**Author:** ![Jo3sh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@Jo3sh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jo3sh)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2000, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/45 "2000-07-08T03:19:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \*\*\*For the record, I have been earning a living from writing, teaching, and > editing for the past decade, so any self-appointed language cops would be wise to think twice before taking me on. If > coprophagous wankers like Jo3sh wish to write condescending posts, then they should bring some knowledge of the subject to the discussion instead of spouting PC nonsense. \*\* First: I have not taken you on, you have taken me on. As I look back through this thread, my first posting appears quite well above yours. Then you burst upon the scene and started flinging bullshit. Worse still, it was erroneous bullshit, and unresearched. Also, I feel it’s worth pointing out that I was responding to people, yourself included, who were playing language cop, not playing at it myself. Second: while I have respect for your years as an editor, teacher, and author, I have nothing but scorn for your apparently closed mind. Third: it appears that you have not followed the links that I and others have provided, or you would realize that even Cecil Himself wrote, “However, as sociologist Ann Bodine points out, singular ‘they’ was in wide use by distinguished writers of English prior to the attacks of **19th-century grammarians** , and its use in speech has persisted to the present day.” (Bolding is mine.) This pretty much destroys your claim (not quoted above) that the use of “their” as genderless pronoun began in the 60’s. Fourth: if I appear condescending to you, it may be because you’re worthy of condescension. You’re certainly uneducated about English, for all your years using it professionally. Fifth: spouting it may be, but it is neither PC nor nonsense. I and others here have given scholarly citations supporting our theses, and you have not, trotting out only your years of experience. Just as an experienced coal miner need not know much about geology but only how to wield the tools of his trade, so it appears that an experienced editor need not have studied much (or care much) about the history of English, but only how to wield his sacred style manual. Sixth: I feel that I have given strong evidence of these points: – The use of “their” as singular genderless pronoun has centuries of history, and is not, contrary to your statements, an invention of feminists in the 1960’s. – The use of “him” and its variants as genderless pronouns originated in the 18th or 19th century, not the dawn of the language. – You’re an unlettered idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/46 "2000-08-26T17:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ssskuggiii \* > \*\*English is derived from several languages, but remains a germanic language. The derivation of english words are as follows: > \*20% from Icelandic > \*20% from French \*\* Well, not quite Icelandic persay, but, Scandanavian. Also, much of the French words in English come from Middle French, obviously not modern French. Anyway, here’s what my Webster’s dictionary says about the origin of English (i’ll try to keep this as concise as possible): "The term English goes back to the name of one of the Germanic tribes -the Angles- who, according to the Venerable Bede, began to invade Britain in the year 449. “English” derives from “Angle-ish,” "… “The Angles, and also the Saxons and Jutes, who, according to Bede, joined in the invasion of Britain, all spoke dialects of a language scholars call West Germanic, no contemporary records of which are extant. Other current West Germanic languages, along with English, are Dutch and German (and also Frisian, who live in the area the Jutes, Saxons, and Angles came from, IIRC. Frisian is the closest relative to English. Friesland is a part of the Netherlands, and I think also a little of Germany, but i’m not sure). West Germanic was closely related to North Germanic, which survives today in the Scandanavian languages such as Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish. Originally both West and North Germanic were the same language, called Germanic, before its speakers split up and in time evolved their own distinctive speech”. While much of the vocabulary of English comes from Latin, French, or Scandanavian, that does not mean the language is from all of those languages (i’m speaking of the structure, obviously, and to those who don’t know this). The substrate of English is Germanic. ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/47 "2000-08-26T17:32:59Z")
Doob, I’m putting you under arrest for abuse of a corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/48 "2000-08-26T19:14:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*Go fuck yourself, you **adam yax** felcher. > > (Sorry, was just looking for a place to use this.) > > Esprix \*\* Why me? Whoa, whoa is me… ---
**Author:** ![aha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eada6e/32.png) [@aha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aha)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/49 "2000-08-26T20:22:17Z")
Ayesha sed: > [@](#): > > If so, get squicked. I want to get squicked dammit. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/50 "2000-08-29T04:28:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alphagene \* > \*\*Doob, I’m putting you under arrest for abuse of a corpse. \*\* Aww, guilty as charged. I didnt even notice how old it was. Oops, i did it again, i dredged up a thread, got lost in the post… ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/51 "2000-08-29T15:27:07Z")
I’ll leave the Ph.D. student, been-teaching-compositon-for-6-years-crap aside (though I _still_ don’t accept plural/singular construction from my students) and instead marvel that nobody has brought up Henry Beard’s solution to the problem: that we contract “he or she or it.” The resulting gender/object neutral word is “h’orsh’it.” Stof ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/52 "2000-08-30T04:12:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stofsky \* > \*\* The resulting gender/object neutral word is “h’orsh’it.” > \*\* Funny, I thought it would be “sheeyit,” already in use in many redneck infested areas. ---
**Author:** ![PatronAnejo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@PatronAnejo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatronAnejo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/53 "2014-06-15T02:27:54Z")
**One of these** has to be wrong. > [@Byzantine](#): > > • _English is voracious in it’s appetite…_ > • _I guess it’s like America…_ \*\*I’ll give you a hint…\*\*never mind, _it’s the first one._ **Possessive _its_** does not take the apostrophe. Your solecism is made tragic by the expectation that you reviewed your comments for mistakes of spelling and -grammar prior to submission. **I reject the possibility** of typographical error—anyone who struggles to tolerate so abecedarian a blunder _could never have missed it_. The inescapable conclusion is that you never learned the difference—in which case you are incompetent to comment on any ̶g̶r̶a̶m̶m̶a̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ subject _ever_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/54 "2014-06-15T02:29:37Z")
Well it was certainly worth the wait for that retort! ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Lucky\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky_Mike)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/55 "2014-06-15T03:00:55Z")
The grammar Nazi is always waiting, always wanting, sitting back and plotting the revenge they so seek with all the bitterness of their heart. 2 years… HA! 5 years, I am just waiting for the moment. 10 years?! … no my friend, it waits like Hitler did for a date at his prom. He stalks the prey, holds back, fighting for the moment to strike. Yes, the prey has died from natural causes, but the grammar Nazi still waits patiently like a Norman Bates from Psycho. He would not hurt a fly. Right up until he strikes at 14 years. YES, 14 years, the anniversary of the death of Sir Grammar Von Nazishun. I strike now… and have my revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/56 "2014-06-15T03:12:58Z")
It’s weird to see a longstanding member (friedo) referred to as a troll. Then I saw the date and it was just past his join date. Must have been one of his first posts. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/57 "2014-06-15T03:32:30Z")
That is funny funny material … I like _one_ as a pronoun … it’s singular and makes one sound cosmopolitan. _Y’all_ is an excellent choice for a plural, but don’t you goddam call me a ewe. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/58 "2014-06-15T03:38:21Z")
> [@Ayesha](#): > > I prefer he/she/it. It’s got a beat you can dance to. I use she/he/it, contracted to shee’it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/59 "2014-06-15T05:01:49Z")
> [@PatronAnejo](#): > > . . . **I reject the possibility** of typographical error . . . I think you’re wrong here. Anyone can make a typo. I damn well know the difference between “you’re” and “your” but I’ve made that blunder before. (I also once sent out a memo to everyone at my workplace, telling them not to “horde” printer toner cartridges. And I once printed up business cards that had the word “privelege.” Ow.) Bring me a newspaper, and I will find a typo. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/60 "2014-06-15T05:08:33Z")
The knots prescriptivists will tie themselves in are hilarious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230.md?page=4)