# It's "He" goddammit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2000, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230 "2000-07-01T02:33:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/101 "2014-06-16T16:35:20Z")
This is such an _English_ problem. Not that variations of this argument don’t happen in other European languages. Just, English is so earnest about gender when we do use it, since we don’t use it all the time. \_ I would like to point out that in German, _any_ word modified by the diminutive suffix _-chen_ (often with a vowel shift as well) becomes grammatically neuter, whatever the gender of the non-diminutive form. I would like to, but I’m not fluent in German, so I could be very wrong. \_ In French, there are two genders: masculine and feminine. In many cases, there is just one standard word for a species of animal; this word has a gender, which is used regardless of the sex of the animal. If you need to state the critter’s sex, tack on an adjective or something. (Of course, certain species, like humans and neats, have different words for the different sexes and even different functions, and avoid this.) \_ Both of these usages would drive English speakers up the wall, because, again, we tend to think gender is a real big deal. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/102 "2014-06-16T17:10:04Z")
You mean we think it’s a big deal in disputes surrounding it. I’d suggest that a “gendered” language like Spanish makes a big deal out of it in that it can carry interesting nuance. For example, _el mar_ and _la mar_ both mean “the ocean” but there is a connotation with _la mar_ that the speaker loves the sea or is waxing poetic over it, at least. Of course, in English, gender has to do with words for males, females, or both. In Spanish, French, etc., the semantic concept is not so tied to “real” gender. It does not sound strange to those langs’ native speakers to say, for example, _la soldat._ ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/103 "2014-06-16T17:16:50Z")
Hmm, I tried to edit in the disclaimer that I am not a native speaker of Sp or Fr; but rather, a linguist who has studied gender and other semantic concepts. Nava, and others, can let me know if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/104 "2014-06-16T17:27:41Z")
You are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/105 "2014-06-16T17:34:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Both of these usages would drive English speakers up the wall, because, again, we tend to think gender is a real big deal. Because in Modern English, gendered language is pretty much tied exclusively to physical sex. That is not true of other languages that have a far more formalized system of grammatical gender. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/106 "2014-06-16T17:37:54Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > You are wrong. I’m okay with that! I just like to talk. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/107 "2014-06-16T17:47:00Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > I’m okay with that! I just like to talk. That works out well. So does he. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/108 "2014-06-16T17:52:20Z")
Yes, even before now, I’ve considered proposing. (But I don’t think he’s a lesbian.) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/109 "2014-06-16T23:11:15Z")
This thread is getting more posts as a zombie. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/110 "2014-06-16T23:20:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I like to be in a second person when it comes to sexual distinctions. Me too. It sure beats masterbation. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/111 "2014-06-16T23:24:49Z")
. . . Waaait . . . That was \*your \*joke, wasn’t it! Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/112 "2014-06-17T04:04:54Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > Me too. > It sure beats masterbation. But in masturbation, you’re beating … oh, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/113 "2014-06-17T14:06:09Z")
Odd that the people who think “man” includes “woman” would have shit fits if you tried to argue “woman” includes “man.” Anyone who calls me a “man” (or a “girl”) is going to get a lesson in proper English and manners. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/114 "2014-06-17T15:22:46Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Odd that the people who think “man” includes “woman” would have shit fits if you tried to argue “woman” includes “man.” > > Anyone who calls me a “man” (or a “girl”) is going to get a lesson in proper English and manners. You didn’t even read **JRagon** ’s post, did you? So you’re saying you’re not part of Man? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/115 "2014-06-17T15:35:21Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > You didn’t even read **JRagon** ’s post, did you? > > So you’re saying you’re not part of Man? Yes, I did. Arguing that it meant this once upon a time is saying that the meanings of words never change. Which is blatantly ridiculous. At one time “the N-word” was used freely. I would not use it today. I am NOT a part of Man, as I am missing that particular body part. I am a part of the human race, and a part of womanhood. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/116 "2014-06-17T15:41:52Z")
Listening to NPR yesterday, they used the word “transgender” … we’re going to need a new set of pronouns anyway … let’s just re-work the whole system while we’re at it. It’s language, it’s supposed to change. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/117 "2014-06-17T15:45:01Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > So you’re saying you’re not part of Man? If I tell you a man stole my laptop, are you going to look for males or males and females? ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/118 "2014-06-17T15:58:42Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Odd that the people who think “man” includes “woman” would have shit fits if you tried to argue “woman” includes “man.” > > Anyone who calls me a “man” **(or a “girl”)** is going to get a lesson in proper English and manners. [bf mine] A tangent but: When I moved from CA to New England, I was surprised every time I heard women referred to as “girls” or “ladies.” It’s as though the 70s never “took” here. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/119 "2014-06-17T16:33:17Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > If I tell you a man stole my laptop, are you going to look for males or males and females? Annie is upset that “man” includes “woman.” It does. As in Mankind. Not a man. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/120 "2014-06-17T16:48:35Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Annie is upset that “man” includes “woman.” It does. As in Mankind. Not a man. Historically. Nowadays, mankind has a distinctly patriarchal feel to it. And anyway, her complaint was being referred to as man or girl. I assume people are not in the habit of referring to her as mankind so your complaint’s a little out of left field. And it’s patently ridiculous to argue that “the masculine embraces the feminine” or whatever delightfully patronizing phrase is in vogue now as a little bit of thinking should make clear to you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230.md?page=7)