# It's "He" goddammit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2000, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230 "2000-07-01T02:33:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/121 "2014-06-17T23:28:49Z")
While I agree that the \*singular they \* can sound awkward, it has been around for quite some time. > **[Singular they](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)** > > Singular they, along with its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs and themselves (also themself, and theirself), is a gender-neutral third-person pronoun. It typically occurs with an indeterminate antecedent, in sentences such as: > This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid... ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/122 "2014-06-18T07:17:59Z")
“One small step for [del]a[/del] man, one giant leap for mankind.” The reason this was such a big deal was because if he didn’t actually say the word “a”, then he was basically just repeating himself… ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/123 "2014-06-18T13:23:24Z")
If you have a group of 1,000 women, would you call it mankind. If one of those woman delivers a baby boy, is it suddenly mankind? Anyone who thinks that men includes everyone should agree with the statement “it’s okay for men to marry men.” ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/124 "2014-06-18T16:24:45Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > At one time “the N-word” was used freely. I would not use it today. Oh, you “would not use it today.” So you admit you’d use it back then. You are a racist. > [@tapu](#): > > A tangent but: When I moved from CA to New England, I was surprised every time I heard women referred to as “girls” or “ladies.” It’s as though the 70s never “took” here. So men can no longer call women “ladies”? Ok, I guess it’s back to “bitches” then. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/125 "2014-06-18T16:49:48Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If you have a group of 1,000 women, would you call it mankind. If one of those woman delivers a baby boy, is it suddenly mankind? > > Anyone who thinks that men includes everyone should agree with the statement “it’s okay for men to marry men.” It \*is \*OK for men to marry men. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/126 "2014-06-19T02:08:30Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If you have a group of 1,000 women, would you call it mankind. If one of those woman delivers a baby boy, is it suddenly mankind? > > Anyone who thinks that men includes everyone should agree with the statement “it’s okay for men to marry men.” It \*is \*OK for men to marry men. Not sure what kind of “gotcha” you think that was supposed to be. 😕 But anyway, you are not getting the distinction. “Men” does not include women. “A man” does not include women. But the word “Man” when talking about more than one person, \*does \*include women. And you could call a group of 1000 women either mankind or womankind, they are both correct. (Though womankind does have a twee-ness to it.) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/127 "2014-06-19T06:33:35Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > And it’s patently ridiculous to argue that “the masculine embraces the feminine” or whatever delightfully patronizing phrase is in vogue now as a little bit of thinking should make clear to you. Nice straw man. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If you have a group of 1,000 women, would you call it mankind. If one of those woman delivers a baby boy, is it suddenly mankind? > > Anyone who thinks that men includes everyone should agree with the statement “it’s okay for men to marry men.” Sometimes words have more than one meaning. Prescriptivism is particularly ridiculous when it sounds unlettered, as you do here. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/128 "2014-06-19T06:58:20Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > It \*is \*OK for men to marry men. Not sure what kind of “gotcha” you think that was supposed to be. 😕 Weird, huh? > [@](#): > > But anyway, you are not getting the distinction. “Men” does not include women. “A man” does not include women. But the word “Man” when talking about more than one person, \*does \*include women. Concur. A dog is the term for a male canine animal, but ‘Dogs’ may include ‘bitches’. (not exactly analogous, obviously, because ‘dog’ also denotes the species - a female canine is also ‘\*\*\*a \*\*\*dog’ in the sense that a woman is not ‘\*\*\*a \*\*\*man’ - but that might just be because a)there’s no battle for gender equality amongst canines and b) they didn’t invent those terms themselves.) ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/129 "2014-06-20T22:17:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > A dog is the term for a male canine animal, but ‘Dogs’ may include ‘bitches’. > > (not exactly analogous, obviously, because ‘dog’ also denotes the species - a female canine is also ‘\*\*\*a \*\*\*dog’ in the sense that a woman is not ‘\*\*\*a \*\*\*man’ - but that might just be because a)there’s no battle for gender equality amongst canines and b) they didn’t invent those terms themselves.) Just a guess here, but c) when we encounter a dog, its sex is not always immediately apparent, and d) it may not be particularly relevant under the circumstances. In most cases, neither of the above is true when encountering a human being. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/130 "2014-06-21T04:23:29Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > So men can no longer call women “ladies”? Ok, I guess it’s back to “bitches” then. That’s what I use. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/131 "2014-06-21T07:51:35Z")
So Annie-Xmas is a racist AND a homophobe, spouting out some grammatical gotcha involving men marrying men. Hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/132 "2014-06-21T08:57:52Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > Just a guess here, but > > c) when we encounter a dog, its sex is not always immediately apparent, and > > d) it may not be particularly relevant under the circumstances. > > In most cases, neither of the above is true when encountering a human being. :dubious: I wasn’t aware my sex was mostly “particularly relevant.” I’d better start posting under a more clearly gendered name or something, then. ---
**Author:** ![singular1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@singular1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/singular1)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/133 "2014-06-21T17:19:08Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > While I agree that the \*singular they \* can sound awkward, it has been around for quite some time. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular\_they](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they) Hey, you talkin’ about me? ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/134 "2014-06-23T05:02:44Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > :dubious: I wasn’t aware my sex was mostly “particularly relevant.” I’d better start posting under a more clearly gendered name or something, then. Much depends on the nature of the “encounter,” doesn’t it? When I used this term, I wasn’t considering anonymous internet posts. Yes, it’s possible one’s sex wouldn’t be particularly relevant under those circumstances. For other encounters (i.e., face-to-face, or at least voice-to-voice ones), I would think there would be at least some relevance. While it’s certainly possible to “over-consider” someone’s sex to deleterious effect, I think few of us could honestly say that we give an individual’s sex no consideration whatsoever in dealing with her/him on a personal level. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/135 "2014-06-23T12:38:02Z")
Holy Crap, I got halfway through reading the thread with this eerie feeling of deja vu… 2 months short of 14 years?! There’s nothing left but bones on this corpse. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/136 "2014-06-23T16:20:41Z")
> [@PatronAnejo](#): > > **One of these** has to be wrong. > > \*\*I’ll give you a hint…\*\*never mind, _it’s the first one._ > > **Possessive _its_** does not take the apostrophe. Your solecism is made tragic by the expectation that you reviewed your comments for mistakes of spelling and -grammar prior to submission. > > **I reject the possibility** of typographical error—anyone who struggles to tolerate so abecedarian a blunder _could never have missed it_. The inescapable conclusion is that you never learned the difference—in which case you are incompetent to comment on any ̶g̶r̶a̶m̶m̶a̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ subject _ever_. I still want to know what happened with PatronAnejo and why this thread got bumped 14 years later for a minor grammatical nitpick. Did it really take 14 years to think of this reply? Did he post this from deep in the Amazon via carrier mule and it just now got to the hamsters? Was he in a coma for 14 years and it feels like this thread was just posted the other day to him? Seriously… what happened here? I really need to know. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/137 "2014-06-23T18:08:27Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Must be a dish off the desert menu. Freeze dried, duh! ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/138 "2014-06-24T18:30:46Z")
Relevant? [http://www.flickfilosopher.com/2011/07/winnie-the-pooh-slayer-of-feminist-fantasies.html](http://www.flickfilosopher.com/2011/07/winnie-the-pooh-slayer-of-feminist-fantasies.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230/139 "2014-06-24T19:05:01Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > Much depends on the nature of the “encounter,” doesn’t it? > > When I used this term, I wasn’t considering anonymous internet posts. > > Yes, it’s possible one’s sex wouldn’t be particularly relevant under those circumstances. > > For other encounters (i.e., face-to-face, or at least voice-to-voice ones), I would think there would be at least some relevance. > > While it’s certainly possible to “over-consider” someone’s sex to deleterious effect, I think few of us could honestly say that we give an individual’s sex no consideration whatsoever in dealing with her/him on a personal level. I certainly (in general) _notice_ whether I’m encountering a male or female person - just like I notice whether I’m encountering a tall person or someone with an interesting hat. I’m not really sure any of that has (or should have) anything to do with the terms we use to describe people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-he-goddammit/24230.md?page=6)