# "It's just a bad Flu, we gotta just live with it." Gaining ground **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [September 12, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544 "2021-09-12T14:36:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/101 "2021-09-15T18:20:03Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > “It” has left large pockets of unvaccinated people…By “It” I presume you’re referring to the patchy vaccine rollout? Because that doesn’t track at all. I’m not sure I’m fully understanding what you saying here. There are still large numbers of unvaccinated people are there not? > [@EllisDee](#): > > The patchy vaccine rollout left people exposed for longer, but none of them are still exposed now. There are still 20% of the 75+ age group exposed (unless my references are way off) > [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m pretty sure that every single person in the US who is willing to be vaccinated was vaccinated months ago That may be so but it seems to be an issue that there are many who are not willing. Whatever the reason for that there are large numbers unprotected and who are a potential statistic-in-waiting. > [@EllisDee](#): > > It’s just that a third of the country feels the same way about getting a vaccine as they do about the government taking away their guns. They would rather die than submit. It’s hard to lay the blame for them being unvaccinated on the patchy vaccine rollout. I think we are using the same phrase in different, imprecise ways. I don’t think of those people as being unvaccinated _because_ of a patchy roll-out. The fact that they remain unvaccinated is how I would _assess_ the roll-out as patchy. The methods used in the roll-out may be sub-optimal in many ways or it may have been the very best that could be achieved under the circumstances. No point in getting hung up on the words. The end result is that, for whatever reasons, there are large groups of people in the USA that are not covered and will continue to provide a happy hunting ground for the virus for some time to come. I think we both agree on that. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/102 "2021-09-15T18:23:26Z")
So tying that all together to the thread topic, as a vaccinated American, I am pretty much at the point where I view covid as just a bad flu and we just have to live with it. The only real difference is I mask in public, but honestly that’s the same (ultimately trivial) level of change as when the seat belt laws went into effect when I was a teenager. I’ve essentially written red America off to the disease to have its way with them. Obviously this could take me down too if they spawn new variants, but that’s just a looming threat like global warming. What are you going to do, right? I’m a liberal American in a liberal state, in a highly vaccinated county, and in a town with excellent mask compliance. I’ve done my part, I feel like. I can’t control what they do in West Pennsyltuckie, y’know? No more lockdowns, no more restrictions, covid has already become a regular part of life. I’m sure it’s worse in the red states than it is here, but I can’t live their life for them. It was mentioned that rates in the US are as bad as they were in December, but look at it from my perspective. In December, Connecticut’s weekly average cases was in the 600s or so. Right now they’re in the 100s. We’re not spiking particularly badly because we’re well vaccinated and wear masks. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/103 "2021-09-15T18:27:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > New Zealand is a small country in the middle of nowhere. It is not as traveled as other countries so the risk is lower to start with. …New Zealand has more land area than the UK (268,838 square kilometres vs 243,600 square kilometres) and we aren’t in the middle of nowhere, we are in the middle of somewhere. We are a travel hub to the Pacific islands, and covid doesn’t respect international borders. > [@Magiver](#): > > By all means, explain the logistics of the UK health system. You made the assertion that “The same thing would have occurred in the UK.” The same thing didn’t happen in the UK. If you think that it did, then its over to you to prove that it did. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/104 "2021-09-15T18:28:32Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m pretty sure that every single person in the US who is willing to be vaccinated was vaccinated months ago. Over a million and a half people have been vaccinated in the US in the last week. Obviously that’s horrifyingly low given how many are still unvaccinated, but somebody is getting convinced at this point. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/105 "2021-09-15T18:29:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The fact that they remain unvaccinated is how I would _assess_ the roll-out as patchy. This is definitely where we have wires crossed. Vaccines are freely and conveniently available to every single American right now today. To me, that is the definition of a completed rollout. The opposite of patchy. There is an ideological divide that appears to be as entrenched as abortion and gun rights. Hopeless, one might say. Blaming the vaccine rollout for not magically crossing that divide seems like missing the forest for the trees. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/106 "2021-09-15T18:31:51Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > He seems to be under the false impression that we’re still struggling to distribute vaccines, and if only we could get shots out to people then we could get up to a higher percentage. In all probability, every willing American has already been vaccinated. oooo! my no. You couldn’t be more wrong. I’m obliged to steer clear of giving too much detail but I’m on record elsewhere as stating what sort of industry and area I’m involved in. For the last 18 month it has specifically involved the manufacture and distribution of Covid vaccines. Supply has not been a problem from the get-go. You can distribute as many vaccines as you like and vaccinate 100% of the people who want it, but if that figure is only covering a substantially smaller proportion of the overall population then it is hard to say that the vaccination program itself is an unqualified success. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/107 "2021-09-15T18:35:27Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > Over a million and a half people have been vaccinated in the US in the last week. Obviously that’s horrifyingly low given how many are still unvaccinated, but somebody is getting convinced at this point. Right, exactly. They are getting convinced. They weren’t willing until this week, and then the moment they were convinced, boom, they got an easily accessible shot. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/108 "2021-09-15T18:36:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You made the assertion that “The same thing would have occurred in the UK.” The same thing didn’t happen in the UK. If you think that it did, then its over to you to prove that it did. Just to back you up on this BB, the UK did things in a very different way. It was a reflection on those very differences that I made back in post 60 ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/109 "2021-09-15T18:37:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You couldn’t be more wrong. Are you saying that there are millions of Americans who want to get vaccinated but can’t get a shot? Because that seems ludicrous on its face. ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/110 "2021-09-15T18:37:24Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Stipulating that his word is “patchy” while my word is “disordered.” It was pretty hectic in the early weeks, and my octogenarian parents did have to jump through some hoops to sign up online back in February. I’ll give him “patchy.” Close enough. The aged parents thing was definitely real, even up here in Canada. I was able to get an appointment for my first shot, booking online with no hassle, while my parents (both in their seventies, and neither one as computer-savvy as they used to be) struggled and called endlessly trying to navigate the system. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/111 "2021-09-15T18:38:02Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > This is definitely where we have wires crossed. Vaccines are freely and conveniently available to every single American right now today. To me, that is the definition of a completed rollout. The opposite of patchy Then perhaps we can say that the rollout was what it was and is what it is but that the end result of it has been patchy coverage? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/112 "2021-09-15T18:40:14Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Are you saying that there are millions of Americans who want to get vaccinated but can’t get a shot? Because that seems ludicrous on its face. No I’m saying that your impressions of what I’m saying are very wrong. i.e. I don’t think that. > [@EllisDee](#): > > He seems to be under the false impression that we’re still struggling to distribute vaccines Vaccine distribution was never a major issue ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/113 "2021-09-15T18:40:47Z")
Not taking the vaccine is part of Red America’s identity. I don’t see how you can reasonably attribute their recalcitrance in any way to a poor vaccine rollout. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/114 "2021-09-15T18:44:07Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > if that figure is only covering a substantially smaller proportion of the overall population then it is hard to say that the vaccination program itself is an unqualified success. I think there’s a fair point here. We have successfully made vaccines available to every American who can be vaccinated. We have failed to vaccinate every American who can be vaccinated, by quite a significant margin. The first one is necessary to achieve the second one. The second one is what we’re actually trying to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/115 "2021-09-15T18:51:52Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No I’m saying that your impressions of what I’m saying are very wrong Oh gotcha, that makes much more sense. My bad, sorry about that. (Meant as sincere.) When I think vaccine rollout, I think operation warp speed and the logistics of getting hundreds of millions of shots into hundreds of millions of arms over an area of 3 million square miles. Mission Accomplished, as it were. When you think vaccine rollout, you think convincing the knuckleheads who stormed the Capitol to stop the election that the vaccines _aren’t_ really microchips from Bill Gates. (Read in a playful joking tone, mocking them not you.) Your definition of vaccine rollout seems… expansive. I fully concede that the vaccine rollout has utterly failed to cross the divide and convince die hard red staters that everything they believe is wrong. Because nothing short of that will convince them to take the vaccine willingly. They can be forced to take it unwillingly, I suppose. That would fix that patchy rollout right up. Might be a pesky civil war as a side effect but at least the vaccine rollout would be better. EDIT: Rereading this post it came off as confrontational when it was not intended as such at all. I added tone notes. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/116 "2021-09-15T19:13:25Z")
I think @Banquet_Bear is right that if, instead of having a patchwork of county centers and pharmacies deliver vaccines only to those who sought them out, we had an organized program in which each person was contacted by a doctor or medical group they were already familiar with, and that group said, “we have scheduled your first dose for xx/xx/xxxx, is there any compelling reason we need to change that?”, that we’d be looking at a much higher percent vaccinated today. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/117 "2021-09-15T19:16:14Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Blaming the vaccine rollout for not magically crossing that divide seems like missing the forest for the trees. …the divide here is between strong public systems with universal healthcare and the strong idealogical “cult of the individual” that is prevalent in the US. You say it yourself. You’ve “essentially written red America off to the disease.” Or when you said the rates are bad, but “look at it from my perspective.” It’s something I can’t imagine ever saying, or thinking. And it isn’t the way our society and culture here in New Zealand (and other places in the world) work. Our pandemic response has been so good here because we did it for each other. We call it the “Team of Five Million.” At the core of our elimination strategy is the equity principle. > [@Elimination Strategy](#): > > The equity principle requires equitable: access to the determinants of health; access to health care: and quality of care received. Equitable outcomes also require equitable processes, and timely evaluation, measuring and monitoring. > **[aotearoa-new\_zealands\_covid-19\_elimination\_strategy-\_an\_overview17may.pdf](https://web.archive.org/web/20210218222052/https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/aotearoa-new_zealands_covid-19_elimination_strategy-_an_overview17may.pdf)** > > 492.63 KB Also the wellbeing principle: > [@](#): > > The wellbeing principle considers the opportunity to maximise health benefits (the protection of population health and wellbeing) and minimise health risks. Health benefits relate to COVID-19 disease impacts as well as non-COVID-19 health (eg, mental wellbeing, prevention activities including screening, chronic disease management, comprehensive primary care, elective care). > Finally, maximising wellbeing requires attention to the broader health determinants (eg, economic support, employment, food security, housing, education and training, family and social support, cultural wellbeing, and freedom from racism and discrimination). Central to the decision making is this: > [@](#): > > Planning and coordination of the COVID-19 response must begin by recognising the roles and responsibilities of the health system and the Crown, for and with Māori. These are affirmed through Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples1 as well as more recently in the Wai 2575 Inquiry2 and the initial findings of the New Zealand Health and Disability Systems Review.3 > These foundational and health systems documents recognise Māori sovereignty, the right of Māori to monitor and evaluate the decisions and actions of government, the primacy of Māori aspirations for ethical decision making and practice, the rights to protection of Māori health and wellbeing, and the system responsibilities for the elimination of health inequity. > > Recognising the fundamental principles and obligations provided by Te Tiriti o Waitangi, we recommend that the equity principle is prioritised consistently across all levels of the strategic response to COVID-19. We also consider the importance of maximising wellbeing benefits while minimising harm. Every pandemic decision is run through this process, including our vaccine rollout. > [@EllisDee](#): > > When I think vaccine rollout, I think operation warp speed and the logistics of getting hundreds of millions of shots into hundreds of millions of arms over an area of 3 million square miles. I mean, this is an important part of the rollout. But this part of the rollout is really just logistics: and (especially as its handled at the State level) is the easiest part to both figure out and implement. But the other part of the rollout, the “getting as many people vaccinated as possible” isn’t a matter of logistics. And in America, you are dealing with something that most of the rest of the world **don’t** have to deal with. And I’m gonna risk getting political here. But that thing is the intentional sabotage of the pandemic response by one political party at the Federal and the State level, by some very rich people, and by some parts of the media. I don’t really have an answer for you on how to deal with that here. But I think the first thing that needs to happen is that focus, the blame, the responsibility needs to be refocused on them. Its easy to blame the “redneck who thinks the vaccine is a microchip.” But its the powerful who benefit from those “rednecks”, and you will never be able to reach them while those power structures remain in place. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/118 "2021-09-15T19:16:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > think @Banquet_Bear is right that if, instead of having a patchwork of county centers and pharmacies deliver vaccines only to those who sought them out, we had an organized program in which each person was contacted by a doctor or medical group they were already familiar with, and that group said, “we have scheduled your first dose for xx/xx/xxxx, is there any compelling reason we need to change that?”, that we’d be looking at a much higher percent vaccinated today The problem isn’t just the unvaccinated, it’s also their doctors with the horse dewormer nonsense and whatnot. I suspect those doctors wouldn’t be making those phone calls. I think I agree that it would be a higher percentage today, but I’m not entirely convinced it would be much higher. It would have been much higher in June in July, but I think we were going to end up with this remaining group of hardliners pretty quickly regardless. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/119 "2021-09-15T19:22:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Our pandemic response has been so good here because we did it for each other. Our response here in Connecticut has also been pretty good – nowhere on your level but few places are – for the exact same reason. We did it for each other. What am I supposed to do about Florida? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544/120 "2021-09-15T19:50:33Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > What am I supposed to do about Florida? …what do you want me to say? You’ve already stated that “essentially written red America off to the disease.” And if that’s the case, then I guess you aren’t supposed to do anything then. And if you are happy with that, then so be it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-just-a-bad-flu-we-gotta-just-live-with-it-gaining-ground/950544.md?page=7)