# It's \*\*kindergarten\*\*, not Survivor **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 25, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600 "2008-05-25T22:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/81 "2008-05-27T20:36:24Z")
I don’t think it’s a matter of writing off his entire life, but making this so public doesn’t do the kid (or the teacher or the other kids) any favors. There is nothing to be gained by guest appearances on morning TV in such a situation. Surely this matter is being handled by TPTB in the school district? If NOT–then the mom should raise awareness, if only to help prevent it happening somewhere else. But either way, Alex suffers. I do hope he hasn’t been made to repeat his story, but my hopes are small… upon reread, I see he didn’t have to get into specifics, but still–how does this help Alex in his acceptance by peers and how does this advance his education? I’m all for reprimanding the teacher, but Alex needs support and guidance now, not to become the Dog and Pony show. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/82 "2008-05-27T21:34:51Z")
[Well, here’s an update.](http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/may/27/st-lucie-teacher-reassigned-after-student-voted-ou/) I have a lot to say on the matter, but having an index finger in bandages is a PITA to convey my feelings on this. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/83 "2008-05-27T21:52:10Z")
[QUOTE=Yeticus Rex] …having an index finger in bandages is a PITA to convey my feelings on this. [/QUOTE] Why? Seems like the appropriate finger is available. Show it to the nice teacher! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/84 "2008-05-27T21:58:34Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] I’m all for reprimanding the teacher, but Alex needs support and guidance now, not to become the Dog and Pony show. [/QUOTE] Exactly. If Mom is upset with the teacher because this was a public airing of a whole classload full of dirty laundry instead of a teacher working quietly with her (Mom) and the administration to get the boy proper help, then how exactly does Mom think further and far more public airing is any different? Of course I was employing a bit of hyperbole there, but hypocrisy really pushes my buttons, it does. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/85 "2008-05-27T22:07:23Z")
Fair enough that it was hyperbole. I didn’t mean to pick on you; it’s a bit of often repeated rhetoric which is a pet peeve of mine, much like the assertion that most abused kids will grow up to be abusers. I agree that she’s not doing him any favors. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/86 "2008-05-27T22:36:49Z")
[QUOTE=Yeticus Rex] [Well, here’s an update.](http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/may/27/st-lucie-teacher-reassigned-after-student-voted-ou/) I have a lot to say on the matter, but having an index finger in bandages is a PITA to convey my feelings on this. [/QUOTE] Hmmm… 12 years experience as a teacher and she does something like this? Either this kid was Damien (and note, I have said and still say his behavior issues, whatever they were, should not have been handled this way) or she’s a moron. Or both. Or, to be fair, she had an Idea that went very, very badly wrong. I cannot imagine just what that idea was, but I do know that teachers aren’t pulled out of classrooms this late in the year unless something is seriously wrong. I feel bad for all the kids, who most likely weren’t able to say goodbye to their teacher. Such things matter to small kids. IMO, the mom has taken on a Cause and now wants Retribution. This cannot end well for Alex. Mom needs to get a grip, talk with Alex, the school and move on. Yes, the teacher should face some music, but Alex is a small boy with problems; he should not become a poster child for this woman’s mistake or the mother’s quest for vengeance. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/87 "2008-05-28T02:05:53Z")
You know, all we know about this seems to be what a kid told his Mom, and what the Mom has tod the press. 2nd hand from a kid then an outraged Mom who is aiming for a lawsuit? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/88 "2008-05-28T02:11:29Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] You know, all we know about this seems to be what a kid told his Mom, and what the Mom has tod the press. [/QUOTE] Did you miss the part in the original article (linked in the OP) where the police told the press that the teacher had confirmed the incident took place? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/89 "2008-05-28T02:17:26Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Did you miss the part in the original article (linked in the OP) where the police told the press that the teacher had confirmed the incident took place? [/QUOTE] Not exactly. The police said that the teacher had admitted an incident, but I saw no details about what she claimed. Maybe they were playing Survivor, who knows? I always worry when we get up a lynch mob without hearing from the other side. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/90 "2008-05-28T14:36:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You know, all we know about this seems to be what a kid told his Mom, and what the Mom has tod the press. 2nd hand from a kid then an outraged Mom who is aiming for a lawsuit? > [@](#): > > [Barton said when she came to pick up her son at the school Wednesday, he was leaving the nurse’s office. > > “He was shaken up,” she said. > > Barton said the nurse told her to talk with Portillo, who told her what happened.]([http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/may/24/30gtteacher-lets-students-vote-out-classmate-5/](http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/may/24/30gtteacher-lets-students-vote-out-classmate-5/)) The mother got the story from the teacher who also confirmed that it happened when questioned by the police. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/91 "2008-05-28T22:22:54Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] I wonder if this teacher had to pass a National Teachers’ Exam or something similar. These exams tested those wanting to enter the profession to see (among other things) if they were prepared to use _appropriate_ measures in classroom control. Are any of these tests given any more on a state or national level? Are they required in public school systems? The National Teachers’ Exam was required at least in Metro-Nashville Public Schools when I started teacihng in 1969. I believe it was dropped two years later. [/QUOTE] There is a state teacher’s exam required for teacher certification in the state of Florida. I couldn’t tell you what it assesses, however, nor do I have any idea how often teachers are required to recertify, or if a class is involved. [Linky.](http://www.fldoe.org/asp/ftce/) ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/92 "2008-05-29T15:41:38Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Exactly. If Mom is upset with the teacher because this was a public airing of a whole classload full of dirty laundry instead of a teacher working quietly with her (Mom) and the administration to get the boy proper help, then how exactly does Mom think further and far more public airing is any different? Of course I was employing a bit of hyperbole there, but hypocrisy really pushes my buttons, it does. [/QUOTE] She wasn’t upset because this was a public airing of grievances against her child. She’s upset because the teacher forced the other students to gang up on her son. Now she’s using the only power she has to get some redress. She’d been working with the school to get help for him, all of which his teacher was a part of, but this they didn’t take seriously. It makes me wonder how hard her struggle to get help for her son has been, if the school system wouldn’t seriously address something this egregious and which the teacher herself has admitted to doing. > [@eleanorrigby](#): > > IMO, the mom has taken on a Cause and now wants Retribution. This cannot end well for Alex. Mom needs to get a grip, talk with Alex, the school and move on. Yes, the teacher should face some music, but Alex is a small boy with problems; he should not become a poster child for this woman’s mistake or the mother’s quest for vengeance. I just watched the video of the interview and I think you’re being unfair to the mother. It isn’t as if she went straight to the news station as soon as she picked her kid up from school. It’s clear that the school did not starting taking this incident seriously until there was media attention on the story. Good for the mom for not just slinking away, the other parents should be up in arms about this too. It isn’t as if this mother was off in la-la-land insisting that there was nothing wrong with her son. Here she is doing what needs to be done to get help for her son, which will also give relief to his next teacher and classmates, something like this happens and the school basically doesn’t care. How must she feel about taking her other child to the same school everyday and leaving her in their care? ETA: There was a piece on the news this morning, in which the mother showed a bunch of behavior reports, basically all of which had notes about his negative behavior in class. I didn’t catch the channel, did anyone else? It was on at around 10 EST. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/93 "2008-05-29T16:32:39Z")
[QUOTE=grayhairedmomma] ETA: There was a piece on the news this morning, in which the mother showed a bunch of behavior reports, basically all of which had notes about his negative behavior in class. I didn’t catch the channel, did anyone else? It was on at around 10 EST. [/QUOTE] Wow, this wasn’t about Alex Barton but another 5-yr old boy who was berated by his teacher: [http://www.wave3.com/global/Story.asp?s=8388558](http://www.wave3.com/global/Story.asp?s=8388558) > [@](#): > > According to school records, 5-year-old Gabriel doesn’t appear to be a model kindergarten student. His daily behavior folder he and his parents showed us is filled with phrases like: “refused to listen,” “talked nonstop interrupting the teachers,” “terrible day” and “talked nonstop today.” > > But Gabriel’s mother and stepdad say the teacher’s response wasn’t discipline, it was downright cruelty. > > Gabriel’s parents say the voice on the tape is Kristen Woodward bad-mouthing Gabriel for several minutes. Among other things, she says: “You’ve punished everyone in this building with your behavior. Everyone has been affected by your nasty behavior. Everyone. Cafeteria workers, the monitors, the art teacher, music teacher … ten people in this building you have tormented and tortured for 149 days. I’m done.” > > At another point she says: “You’ve been ignorant, selfish, self-absorbed, the whole thing. I’m done…” > > Then Ms. Woodward addresses the class: “He has made every wrong choice possible and he has had more help to make right choices and he has chose not to. So you guys think, is that somebody you want to be with?” > > “Noooo,” says the kindergarten class in unison. > > “See, your friend doesn’t want to be with you,” said Woodward. ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/94 "2008-05-29T16:38:52Z")
[QUOTE=grayhairedmomma] The mother got the story from the teacher who also confirmed that it happened when questioned by the police. [/QUOTE] [shrug] I’m still not up in arms, nor convinced that the teacher deserves lynchmob treatment. We still only really have the mother’s version of events, which was obtained from the child. That’s not at all an unbiased account. And we all know how accurately the media portrays things and reports facts, right? I mean, if the teacher did something that’s as bad as the news accounts make it, sure, there absolutely should be some sort of disciplinary action, dismissal, whatever. However: as the spouse of someone with thirty years of public school teaching experience, I can tell you absolutely, unequivocally, and **far** more often than the general public thinks, that _parents and their children are **notoriously** unrealiable witnesses and way, way, over the top embellishers when it comes to recounting a “horrible” classroom experience_. Far, far more often the truth is something relatively mundane. I believe that that’s entirely possible here. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/95 "2008-05-29T16:44:58Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Its not the island of “Survivor”. Its the island of Lord of the Flies. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=OtakuLoki] No it isn’t. At the island of LOTF, the insanity stopped when the adults showed up. ☹ [/QUOTE] [hijack]The insanity didn’t end when the adults showed up. Ralph was “saved” by a battleship captain during active wartime. The most horrifying revelation in the whole story was that the adults were playing the same game.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/96 "2008-05-29T17:07:33Z")
Dear Ms Portillo, You are in the wrong profession. Signed, Humanity PS. I hear Satan is hiring. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/97 "2008-05-29T17:48:13Z")
**drpepper** , I am simply going to say I disagree with your assertion. I don’t doubt there are many complaints by parents and students that are over-inflated. I also don’t doubt that there are many times teachers and administrators have conspired to produce a paper-trail that leaves the impression that such complaints are over-inflated. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/98 "2008-05-29T18:34:39Z")
The teacher seems to have posted her side of the story [here](http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/may/29/police-report-reveals-teachers-side-incident-which/) It does seem that she did want to try to get the kids to explain to Alex their feelings about his behavior. She does say the voting thing was supposed to have just been for the afternoon. It does seem to have been an idea gone wrong, what is unclear to me is how she thought it could have gone right. #1) Adults aren’t very good at seperating behavior from the person with out a fair amount of training. I can’t see a kindergardener being able to say"when you pushed the table up with your feet it messed up my coloring and made me mad" It just isn’t developementaly possible. I can’t fathom any possible way it wouldn’t pretty quickly head into “you pick your boogers and eat them.” Anyone with an early childhood teaching certification should know this. #2) Children on the autism spectrum don’t respond to peer pressure. It is kind of part of the package. #3) Where it comes to the vote, whether it was for just the afternoon or the rest of the year, I am unclear as to how else the child was supposed to respond. When you are 5 an afternoon is forever long, and it makes no real difference on the timing. I think this woman needs a lawyer at this point, she really shouldn’t be talking to the press. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/99 "2008-05-29T18:43:47Z")
We don’t get to vote unpopular employees out of the breakroom at work. Why give the kids the impression that this is the proper way to handle the situation? Teaching communication skills and to consider other folks around you is good, but a “mob rule” vote? Let’s say there is a popular kid in the class who regularly picks on one or two other kids. Their behavior is bad, but _they_ won’t get “voted out”, because the other 19 kids don’t have a problem with him. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600/100 "2008-05-29T21:28:03Z")
Public school systems are not equipped to handle kids on the autism spectrum. They can barely handle neurotypical kids without scarring them for life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-kindergarten-not-survivor/450600.md?page=6)