# It's like that movie with Arnold **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461 "2008-03-23T20:52:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/141 "2008-03-25T16:57:40Z")
Now that I’m careening dangerously into tl;dr territory, back to **Acid\_Lamp**. First things first, I really think in a lot of ways we **haven’t** moved past patriarchy and misogyny and enforcement of gender roles (as the button says, “I’ll be post-feminist in the post-patriarchy”). Leaving that aside though, what I hope we’re coming to is that (despite the etymology) a virtue is virtuous regardless of who’s doing it. If it’s good for a man to be strong and confident, surely it’s good for a woman to be strong and confident. If it’s good for a woman to be nurturing and protective, surely the same goes for a man. But stay tuned, there are nuances. On another important subject: > [@](#): > > . A man is more than the sum of his organs, as is a woman, but surely one’s physical self identity is of significant weight in one’s self image. > [@](#): > > It was almost as if I thought: " Damn it. Now they are taking away the most basic biological definition of manhood." I think one thing that’s really important to grasp is that one person’s gender identity that is outside the norm shouldn’t be a menace to your own. Everyone builds their gender identity out of all the parts that are important to them. For example, for many, many people, their physical embodiment is of great importance to their sense of gender, for obvious reasons, the most important being that we privilege genitals above everything else in trying to judge what a person’s gender identity is from the moment they’re born. We can _problematize_ this – point out that it in fact _doesn’t_ work for a lot of people, not only trans people but, for example, people who for whatever reason have lost reproductive function – without getting _rid_ of it for people for whom it works very well. We don’t have to take something that used to be universal and get rid of it entirely; we just have to realize that instead of working for _everyone_, it works for a lot of people, but not everyone. All the more so for your examples of “men’s culture” and so forth. I’m disinclined to judge attributes on the basis of whether they’re traditional for one gender or another, but instead on the basis of whether they’re helpful for people in general, or at a particular time. But I build my sense of my gender out of lots of different things about myself, and people in general do the same, whether it should be from attributes that are traditionally thought of as gendered for their gender, gendered away from their gender, or not gendered at all. And I see on preview that **wolfstu** has dealt with this more appositely, so I’ll just stop. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/142 "2008-03-25T17:00:52Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] I think it’s this appropriation that made me react so strongly. **In a way, my tolerance is too good: I had no problem with accepting Tom as a man. I don’t think you get to have it both ways, though.** I have said more than enough here. [/QUOTE] The part bolded above is a sticking point for me as well. I have a similar gut reaction to the concept of being bisexual. There are just some things that I seem wired to view as either/or propositions. I have no issue with someone being male, female or transexual. Likewise I have no issue with someone being either gay or straight. But they’ve ‘picked’ one. I still need to process the concept of having both. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/143 "2008-03-25T17:02:01Z")
> [@](#): > > But he is not a woman any more–he rejects womanhood; he has radically altered his physical appearance and had his most obvious womanly attributes surgically removed to show how much he wants to be a man. He wants to live life as a man–then he should do so–and not be woman when he wants to be or it’s convenient for him. I guess all I’m trying to say is that for him, this isn’t equivalent to being a woman, that’s all. (And as someone upthread said, considering all the stick he’s getting, this is hardly “convenient.” It certainly isn’t a whim or something he’s doing for kicks.) > [@](#): > > Reverse the situation: should a male to female person be a sperm donor? Go off the estrogen and progesterone so that their partner can have in vitro? Or just have sex with male penetration and all–and now I am confused because such a person would most likely have a male partner and he couldn’t have in vitro… Sure, why not? (Although just as a point, lots of trans women - possibly more than in the general population - are lesbian or bi and have female partners.) > [@](#): > > I think I may have to just give up. Thank you matt, for listening and hearing me out. Obliged to you for listening to me, too. You’ve given me food for thought and I hope the reverse is true as well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/144 "2008-03-25T17:16:49Z")
Any thread that encourages reading of Ursula K. LeGuinn can’t be all bad. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/145 "2008-03-25T17:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Any thread that encourages reading of Ursula K. LeGuinn can’t be all bad. [/QUOTE] \ Well, there’s something we can all take away from this… \ On that note, I’m off to work. ---
**Author:** ![kathmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kathmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathmandu)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/146 "2008-03-25T17:21:01Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] I know I said I’d be gone, but I have to say something in here to **eleanorigby** , since she asked me not to waste her PM space for it. You got the wrong idea entirely. I wasn’t trying to be amusing or coy at all. I’m sorry I tried to help; you’re clearly not worth it, and you seem to still hold a grudge over some silly thing I’ve long forgotten about. I should’ve known that getting involved in the midst of your apoplectic rage would only get me painted as a target too. It’s just as well–now that I’ve stopped caring about the effect it has on your reputation, I find it kind of amusing. Don’t expect any help from me in the future. I won’t see your reply here. [/QUOTE] Wow. I haven’t been posting here long, but this is one of the most assholish posts I’ve seen yet. I’ve read your posts in this thread and in the other, and for someone who claims to be a voice espousing tolerance, you sure come across as a hateful jerk. Although I’m sure you won’t see this post, as you’ve apparently said “nha nha nha nha nha, I’ve had the last word” and flounced out of the thread. I’m sure she can probably do without your “help”. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/147 "2008-03-25T18:06:38Z")
I’m not saying that everyone should go back to the fifties. I’m saying that if the two spheres of male and female overlap, then there ought to be at least a small margin on either side that is exclusive to them, otherwise the term has no meaning whatsoever. I would have been content to place biological functions in that sliver, but apparently even THAT is wrong. So I either need a new term to call myself, or something has to give. I refuse to consider a biologically female person who is pregnant, a male; consisting of the the exact same gender identity as myself. It is the complete opposite of the definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/148 "2008-03-25T18:32:57Z")
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp] I’m not saying that everyone should go back to the fifties. I’m saying that if the two spheres of male and female overlap, then there ought to be at least a small margin on either side that is exclusive to them, otherwise the term has no meaning whatsoever. I would have been content to place biological functions in that sliver, but apparently even THAT is wrong. So I either need a new term to call myself, or something has to give. I refuse to consider a biologically female person who is pregnant, a male; consisting of the the exact same gender identity as myself. It is the complete opposite of the definition of the word. [/QUOTE] Nobody’s able to take your gender identity away from you. Why would Thomas call your identity as a man into question? After all, even before you heard about him, you knew that there were tons of men that you have nothing in common with. (It’s what in feminist studies is called the myth of universality.) As with any other man, there are ways you’re similar to him and ways you’re different from him. In this case, anatomy and reproductive history is one of the ways you’re different from him. Do you really _need_ to know, in order to truly consider yourself a man, that nobody else who has ever considered himself a man has ever been pregnant? I don’t think that’s the case. I think you identify as a man because of something inside yourself, not because of what someone else did. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/149 "2008-03-25T18:54:22Z")
You are dodging the issue. If I was to dress up like woman and go try and use the ladies locker room, i’m pretty sure i’d be in serious trouble. I’m also fairly certain that my asserting that my gender is female in stark contrast to the obvious reality of my physical person wouldn’t get me real far. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/150 "2008-03-25T19:08:34Z")
It seems odd to me that if gender roles are really unimportant, and all that matters is “what is inside you”, one would go through so much trouble, pain and expense to assume one or another role via sex reassignment surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/151 "2008-03-25T19:12:27Z")
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp] You are dodging the issue. If I was to dress up like woman and go try and use the ladies locker room, i’m pretty sure i’d be in serious trouble. I’m also fairly certain that my asserting that my gender is female in stark contrast to the obvious reality of my physical person wouldn’t get me real far. [/QUOTE] That’s because you’re a man. If Thomas tried to use the women’s locker room, he’d probably get into serious trouble too, because he’s also a man. Of course sometimes women who try to use the womens’ facilities end up [getting into trouble too](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=440903&highlight=restroom). ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/152 "2008-03-25T19:17:10Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] That’s because you’re a man. If Thomas tried to use the women’s locker room, he’d probably get into serious trouble too, because he’s also a man. Of course sometimes women who try to use the womens’ facilities end up [getting into trouble too](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=440903&highlight=restroom). [/QUOTE] Hmm…I mean no disrespect to Thomas at all, but I’m thinking that if he tried to use the women’s locker room right now, he wouldn’t cause the blink of an eye. If he tried to use the men’s locker room, he might cause some controversy. Folks can’t tell what’s going on in Thomas’s head from looking at him. They can tell, however, if he’s pregnant. I’m guessing the default assumption will be that the women’s locker room is the right place for him. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/153 "2008-03-25T19:21:38Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] That’s because you’re a man. If Thomas tried to use the women’s locker room, he’d probably get into serious trouble too, because he’s also a man. Of course sometimes women who try to use the womens’ facilities end up [getting into trouble too](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=440903&highlight=restroom). [/QUOTE] Why? If gender is nothing more than an assumed affected concept, removed from the physical reality, then I’m a woman if I say I am. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/154 "2008-03-25T19:21:51Z")
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp] If I was to dress up like woman and go try and use the ladies locker room, i’m pretty sure i’d be in serious trouble. I’m also fairly certain that my asserting that my gender is female in stark contrast to the obvious reality of my physical person wouldn’t get me real far. [/QUOTE] You’re quite right - people who transgress gender norms do suffer a lot of exclusion and mistrust, which they overcome to a greater or lesser extent based on where they find themselves and what resources are available to them. Access to gendered spaces is a major issue for trans people - who either have to put themselves in danger, hide their gender presentation temporarily (which may become increasingly impractical), or simply do without, causing all kinds of problems. But people are working continually to try to improve that situation. > [@Malthus](#): > > It seems odd to me that if gender roles are really unimportant, and all that matters is “what is inside you”, one would go through so much trouble, pain and expense to assume one or another role via sex reassignment surgery. The point is that physical makeup won’t _necessarily determine_ the way that a person will identify their gender. The point isn’t that physical embodiment doesn’t matter at all, as I stated before. Most people’s gender identity, whether trans or non-trans, heavily emphasizes their body. A person who identifies their gender differently than the way they’re assumed to based on their body will have to decide for themself whether or not they, with their individual needs, psyche, and personal and social situation, need to change their body. Some don’t find that necessary; others do, to a greater or lesser extent. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/155 "2008-03-25T19:30:06Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Hmm…I mean no disrespect to Thomas at all, but I’m thinking that if he tried to use the women’s locker room right now, he wouldn’t cause the blink of an eye. If he tried to use the men’s locker room, he might cause some controversy. Folks can’t tell what’s going on in Thomas’s head from looking at him. They can tell, however, if he’s pregnant. I’m guessing the default assumption will be that the women’s locker room is the right place for him. [/QUOTE] If the picture is accurate, he is probably not going to be taken for a pregnant woman but an overweight man. He is still sporting robust facial hair. > [@Acid Lamp](#): > > If gender is nothing more than an assumed affected concept, removed from the physical reality, then I’m a woman if I say I am. I give up. If anyone else wants to waste their time trying to break through that concrete block you’re somehow managing to use for a head, let them have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/156 "2008-03-25T19:33:13Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] If the picture is accurate, he is probably not going to be taken for a pregnant woman but an overweight man. He is still sporting robust facial hair. [/QUOTE] Ah…gotcha. I didn’t see the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/157 "2008-03-25T19:34:00Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] I give up. If anyone else wants to waste their time trying to break through that concrete block you’re somehow managing to use for a head, let them have at it. [/QUOTE] Which is a nice way of saying, : I don’t have a logical answer to your question, so stop asking them and just do as you are told." ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/158 "2008-03-25T19:36:57Z")
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp] Which is a nice way of saying, : I don’t have a logical answer to your question, so stop asking them and just do as you are told." [/QUOTE] If the way **Otto** is responding to you bothers you, why don’t you engage with what I’ve had to say? You might find it interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/159 "2008-03-25T19:37:11Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] **Miller** –I am not unintelligent and I can read. You posted nothing that has not been said before. As I said–this thread is more about parsing feelings and opinions about this situation. Reiterating facts is a dead end. I don’t care if it was one poster, once–I take the call of bigot/moron/asshole seriously, as should anyone. Or do words not matter anymore as well? Such claims by those who proclaim tolerance and demand it are not limited to this thread, in fact, the board is rife with them. Therefore, my calls to have it stop are pertinent. I honestly don’t care if you don’t see this as a morals issue. That is your prerogative. I may mean ethics. I am not sure–as I’ve said more than once, I am thinking this through. I don’t claim to come to Pit threads (or any other thread) with my opinion fully formed and eloquent. Obviously, YMMV. [/QUOTE] Okay, apparently now _I’ve_ pissed you off, for reasons that are every bit as impenetrable to me as the ones behind your tantrum at **matt\_mcl**. I apologize for attempting to have a dialogue with you. I won’t make that mistake again in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461/160 "2008-03-25T19:49:48Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] Reverse the situation: should a male to female person be a sperm donor? [/QUOTE] They would be wonderful living woman sperm. (I am SO not linking to that thread and raising that shitstorm again.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-like-that-movie-with-arnold/442461.md?page=9)