# It's "needs washed"!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575 "2009-08-25T00:16:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/121 "2009-08-26T18:36:26Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Except, in many cases, different dialects are mutually intelligible, even when certain constructions or phonetic elements sound “wrong.” That’s what makes them separate dialects and not separate languages. So? > [@](#): > > You have no problem understanding “needs washed,” you were just taught that “needs to be washed” or “needs washing” is right. So? > [@](#): > > Too, there are issues with people having more trouble understanding someone even when they expect that the person is going to be speaking a non-mainstream dialect. In one of the books I linked above, they cite a study that was done with a recorded lecture and a slideshow of photos of a person presenting the lecture. When the presenter was Asian, people reported having problems that didn’t exist when they were played the exact same recording but displayed a white presenter. Ok, people are prejudiced. So what? > [@](#): > > “She hat” is \*\*exactly \*\*as grammatically correct in the English language as “her hat.” However, the former is AAVE, and the latter is MUSE. The \*\*only \*\*difference is that the former is spoken by Black Americans, and moreso by poor ones than rich ones. So, explain to me how making a value judgement solely based on \*\*who \*\*speaks a dialect is \*\*not \*\*racism or classism? Grammatical correctness is not the arbiter of social correctness. This is my point and you’re not getting it. And saying “it’s racism” if the characteristic i’m discriminating on happens to be shared disproportionately by one group or another does not, in and of itself, make it “racial discrimination” Racial discrimination is “i hate you because you’re x race” Racial discrimination is not “i hate you because you sound different than me”. It may be discrimination, but not racial. edit: you’re just not getting it. the value judgment is not based on “who” speaks the dialect, it’s the value judgment that it’s spoken at all. kid rock is not any more impressive than snoop dogg when they speak. > [@](#): > > 2.) This isn’t a “liberal, postmodern” claim. This is basic linguistics. This is how language actually works, instead of how you assume it works through the narrow lens of your own experience (which, by the way, includes your grade school English classes, which taught you what was “right” and what was “wrong.”) Go read a book sometime. I recommended two good ones already. Again… so? Linguistics does not hold the monopoly on social acceptability. Note, I never suggested that it’s incorrect. Rather, that because it is atypical, it is de facto improper when viewed in the context of social custom and usage. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/122 "2009-08-26T18:37:56Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Thought I typed “usage”, but thanks for being a cock about it. Now, Woody, that’s a bit of projection, isn’t it? Don’t lash out at others for mistakes of your own — particularly when those mistakes are of the same kind for which you are reprimanding those others. > [@](#): > > The suit and tie comparison I used was apt: employers (and I’m talking about “business” types here, not retail establishments), in my experience, expect you to be able to speak/e-mail in what is considered a “professional” manner, especially when you’re dealing with similar businesses/clients on a daily basis. If you’re not going to bother to learn what they consider “proper” usage, and conduct yourself as if you’re shooting the shit with your buddies on the corner during the interview (or on the job, in some cases), they’re likely to see you as not being serious about the opportunity. That’s just the way it is. You might think it’s unjust, but if you’ve found a job where no compromise is required I’d love to hear about it. It’s like asking “Why does it matter if someone’s resume is shot through with spelling and grammatical errors? They [the employers] still understand the gist of it!”. Not the way things work. But heck, it’s n ot like they teach this kind of stuff in English class or anything - however would someone from the boonies know what’s considered “proper”? It’s just one more elitist plot to oppress everybody who didn’t grow up on the Upper East Side. I do agree with you to a great extent. I know that if I interviewed someone, and they began talking in jive, or rap lingo, or that goddam unnerving New Jersey twang (sorry, New Jersey people) — I would be less inclined to hire them. And it would be even more important in a business where communication is critical. However, my point is that a person can have and maintain a native accent with regionalisms while still being able to communicate reasonably well in the business world (or other situtations in which a standard English facilitates communication). ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/123 "2009-08-26T18:41:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m saying that I can tell the difference between regionalisms and stupidity. It’s an advantage when you go out into the world. > > You kept demanding to know if I’ve ever dealt with hiring. I answered. Sorry that it wasn’t the answer you wanted. Better luck next time. I don’t really know why you’re being such an asshole about it, but then, I don’t really give a fuck about your attempted “gotcha!” anyway. No shit you can tell the difference between regionalisms and stupidity. So can I and the HR managers I mentioned. It has more to do with the applicant giving enough of a shit to attempt to speak in a professional manner. If your company doesn’t have such standards, fine. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/124 "2009-08-26T18:53:45Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > I don’t really know why you’re being such an asshole about it, but then, I don’t really give a fuck about your attempted “gotcha!” anyway. > > No shit you can tell the difference between regionalisms and stupidity. So can I and the HR managers I mentioned. It has more to do with the applicant giving enough of a shit to attempt to speak in a professional manner. If your company doesn’t have such standards, fine. So if you heard someone use the construction “needs washed” you’d advise against hiring them? Because it shows the speaker didn’t understand American professional business norms and therefore wouldn’t be a good fit for your company? Seriously? Thing is, my native dialect is standard American television english, not some obscure Appalachian dialect, and “needs washed” sounds perfectly fine to me. The house needs painted, the dog needs fed, the cat needs petted. These constructions don’t sound unnatural or hideous to my west coast TV english standard dialect ears. So you’re saying you’d fire me because I obviously don’t give a shit about being professional? Because I dropped an implied “to be” out of a sentence? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/125 "2009-08-26T18:56:52Z")
I’m saying in an interview, an applicant who spoke in a more professional manner would have the edge over one who didn’t, other qualifications being equal. ETA: Just as an applicant who showed up well-dressed would make a better impression than one who was dressed casually. These are the things that are the difference between getting a second interview or not, at least where I work. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/126 "2009-08-26T18:59:17Z")
And you think “needs washed” is unprofessional? The mark of an uncultured provincial? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/127 "2009-08-26T19:45:08Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And you think “needs washed” is unprofessional? The mark of an uncultured provincial? Personally? Yep. Though I can’t imagine why that phrase would come up in an interview. But yes, as pointed out by many in this thread, it does sound kind of hickish. If you were applying for a job in an area where it was common usage, though, I doubt it would be much of a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/128 "2009-08-26T19:56:48Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And you think “needs washed” is unprofessional? To the same extent that “I be speaking English” or “he done gone to the store,” yes, I do. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/129 "2009-08-26T19:57:14Z")
It’s really just a matter of different parts of speech functioning equally well, with certain phrases or words understood. My car needs (to be) washed. My car needs (a) washing. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/130 "2009-08-26T20:57:39Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > wants to be let out of the house to do something? > or wants out of the household unit? What’s the difference? I’m saying that my kid needs to open the door so the cat can exit the building because the cat’s clawing at the door. > [@Vihaga](#): > > none of them suffer from the Pittsburgh-area dialect, as it is just as appalling as you think. > Ask the OP about the proper use of “youns.” Suffer? Really? And what’s there to know about “youns”? It’s the second-person, plural pronoun. No different than _yinz_, _y’all_, or _you guys_. > [@Liberal](#): > > It’s really just a matter of different parts of speech functioning equally well, with certain phrases or words understood. > > My car needs (to be) washed. > My car needs (a) washing. In my mind, it functions as a direct object. If you had misheard me and said “The car needs what?”, would you really expect me to say “to be washed”? Doesn’t that sound entirely forced to you? You’d naturally expect me to say “washed”, wouldn’t you? So why the extra, unnecessary “to be”? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/131 "2009-08-26T21:50:20Z")
Well, would you say “That guy needs laid” or “That guy needs to get laid”? If the latter, does it sound forced to you? I mean, the “to get” is implied, right? To me, the former sounds like caveman talk. It’s perfectly understandable, but it comes across as an uneducated way of saying it, is all. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/132 "2009-08-26T21:58:29Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > I don’t really know why you’re being such an asshole about it, but then, I don’t really give a fuck about your attempted “gotcha!” anyway. Then you shouldn’t have ASKED. If you didn’t want to be told that yes, I have been involved in hiring, you shouldn’t have asked if I’ve been involved in hiring. As for anyone being an asshole, that’s spectacular that you think you can sit there and say other people are unprofessional hicks who sound like shit, but they are the ones who are assholes when they tell you work experience. Is your gauge of your own tone that laughably bad? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/133 "2009-08-26T22:01:25Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Well, would you say “That guy needs laid” or “That guy needs to get laid”? If the latter, does it sound forced to you? I mean, the “to get” is implied, right? To me, the former sounds like caveman talk. It’s perfectly understandable, but it comes across as an uneducated way of saying it, is all. Although I don’t speak the particular dialect, “needs washed” sounds fine while “needs laid” doesn’t so much. Thing is, the colloquialism for sex isn’t “to lay”; how often do you hear “I’m going to lay her” these days? “She told me I was a great lay,” sure, but not the verb form. It’s “get laid”: “I’m going to get laid tonight,” “He sounds like he needs to get laid.” You don’t say, “That car looks like it needs to get washed.” You can, but it sounds forced, wouldn’t you say? The rule as I understand it is that “to be” is omitted. “To get” != “to be”, so it doesn’t get omitted. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/134 "2009-08-26T22:50:07Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Then you shouldn’t have ASKED. If you didn’t want to be told that yes, I have been involved in hiring, you shouldn’t have asked if I’ve been involved in hiring. > > As for anyone being an asshole, that’s spectacular that you think you can sit there and say other people are unprofessional hicks who sound like shit, but they are the ones who are assholes when they tell you work experience. Is your gauge of your own tone that laughably bad? Only as bad as your reading comprehension, it seems. I wasn’t attempting any kind of smackdown with my question; I was legitimately asking if you’d been involved in hiring, because every single time I’ve been in that position, language usage counts to those doing the hiring. I don’t even see why this is controversial; the way you present yourself is a major factor in determining whether or not you’ll be hired. Does this contradict most people’s experience? Does it contradict the millions of “How to interview well” books and articles? Holy shit, who knew “If you want to be considered for a professional position, act professional” would cause such a fucking shitstorm? Anyway, your assumption that I didn’t want to be told yes is your own high-horse bullshit. All I wanted to be told was whether people using slang and speaking as if they were hanging out with their drinking buddies was acceptable during a job interview. Apparently with your company, it is. Where did I say people were unprofessional hicks? I said the perception is going to be that you’re unprofessional if you can’t conduct yourself in what is considered to be a professional manner, for the GODDAMN BILLIONTH TIME. It’s funny how you want to argue with me when I make this point, yet you feel no compunction about using your own perception of what I’m saying to act like a shrill drama queen. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/135 "2009-08-26T23:07:00Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Although I don’t speak the particular dialect, “needs washed” sounds fine while “needs laid” doesn’t so much. Thing is, the colloquialism for sex isn’t “to lay”; how often do you hear “I’m going to lay her” these days? “She told me I was a great lay,” sure, but not the verb form. It’s “get laid”: “I’m going to get laid tonight,” “He sounds like he needs to get laid.” You don’t say, “That car looks like it needs to get washed.” You can, but it sounds forced, wouldn’t you say? > > The rule as I understand it is that “to be” is omitted. “To get” != “to be”, so it doesn’t get omitted. OK, so if that’s the arbitrary cutoff, “That chick needs sedated” or “that guy needs blown until he passes out” sound all right? I honestly can’t tell - is there any case where “to be” doesn’t sound forced to those who say “the car needs washed”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/136 "2009-08-26T23:10:28Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > If you had misheard me and said “The car needs what?”, would you really expect me to say “to be washed”? Doesn’t that sound entirely forced to you? You’d naturally expect me to say “washed”, wouldn’t you? So why the extra, unnecessary “to be”? Unquestionably, yes to the former and no to the latter. “To be washed” is completely natural to me, and “washed” would be weird. Weird like gesticulating at the fridge and saying “beer!” in order to ask someone to bring you a brewski. Do you really find it that strange that this phrasing not only isn’t natural to, but also grates on, some people? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/137 "2009-08-27T00:22:20Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > Another problem with “Needs washed” is that it can be ambiguous when used in written communication. > > Dog needs washed outside. > > Is this a statement about the dog needing a bath, or a statement about where dog essentials are maintained? Or, perhaps, the results to canine necessities of a flood that flowed through the house? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/138 "2009-08-27T00:27:16Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > All I wanted to be told was whether people using slang and speaking as if they were hanging out with their drinking buddies was acceptable during a job interview. Apparently with your company, it is. It’s not slang. It’s not barroom speech or drunk speech. It’s exactly the same as one person saying soda and the other saying pop. I say pop, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/139 "2009-08-27T00:27:19Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > In my mind, it functions as a direct object. If you had misheard me and said “The car needs what?”, would you really expect me to say “to be washed”? Doesn’t that sound entirely forced to you? You’d naturally expect me to say “washed”, wouldn’t you? So why the extra, unnecessary “to be”? Well, okay. That’s a couple of questions and comments. I think that if you want to treat it as a direct object, you need a gerund (which is a noun form of a verb). So you need to say something like, “The car needs (a) washing.” The (a) is optional, and simply understood to be there when it’s left out. The article, “a”, is normally included when the direct object is NOT a gerund. Like “The car needs a muffler.” We ordinarily don’t say, “The car needs muffler.” But when the term is a gerund, we often say, “The blank needs blanking.” Now, the other question is about the participial form: “The car needs (to be) washed.” You’re right that it’s not necessary to say the infinitive. But that’s because the infinitive is understood to apply, whether it’s said or not. So, “The car needs washed” is a perfectly acceptable way to say it. Just like any other participial phrase. Like “The piano needs tuned.” The prescriptivists might cringe, but so what. Let them cringe. They’ve been cringing for thousands of years as language has evolved. As a matter of interest, Nobel laureate, F.A. von Hayek, (who, incidentally proved deductively that socialism cannot work as an economic system, based upon the conclusion that government could not effectively set prices) wrote on the issue of language. He said that it was a prime example of what he called “spontaneous order” — order arising despite the lack of any central control or command. (The French L’Académie française notwithstanding.) ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575/140 "2009-08-27T00:45:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And you think “needs washed” is unprofessional? The mark of an uncultured provincial? Well, it does come from Pittsburgh… 😉 Living in Baltimore, as I do, at the cusp of the football season, anything from Pittsburgh is bad. But, although it grates on my ears a bit, it’s no big deal. My boss uses it and although I could tease him about it without fear, I don’t. It’s just the way he talks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-needs-washed/507575.md?page=8)