# "It's not a HATE CRIME ..." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681 "2003-07-29T16:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![chattywine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@chattywine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chattywine)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/21 "2003-07-29T22:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Ah, a challenge! > > Actually, if they are talking about Nathan Bedford Forrest… \*\* Was I the only person who thought the bumpersticker was referring to Forrest Gump? Yay, I learned something new today! ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/22 "2003-07-29T23:00:39Z")
I’m sorry folks, and maybe I’m being over-sensitive, but all this logic-twisting doesn’t make me read it any other way than it came off to me originally. This person thinks that what everyone else terms a “hate crime” is pretty much OK because its the proud “Suth’n way”. The flag is meant as nothing more than reinforcing that point. We must remember that most bumperstickers are the intellectual equivalent of a crowbar to the back of the head: immediately obvious intent, no subtlety of point, and often a lingering headache after coming in contact with it. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/23 "2003-07-29T23:05:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jaade \* > **I didn’t see it as a flag of slavery, I saw it as a flag of history, good and bad.** This flag is a flag of history? [http://www.sos.state.ga.us/museum/html/georgia\_state\_flag\_since\_1956.htm](http://www.sos.state.ga.us/museum/html/georgia_state_flag_since_1956.htm) It was in use from 1956-2001. Go here to see all the other GA state flags: [http://www.sos.state.ga.us/museum/html/georgia\_flag\_history.html](http://www.sos.state.ga.us/museum/html/georgia_flag_history.html) Gee, I wonder why they decided to change their state flag in 1956. What could have been going on then? If the Southerners didn’t want the Stars and Bars associated with slavery and racism, then maybe they should have not associated it with slavery and racism in the first place. The bumper sticker is moronic and anybody who has such a bumper sticker is a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Bugnorton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bugnorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bugnorton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/24 "2003-07-29T23:24:06Z")
Same with SC, wonder why they put the stars and bars on the statehouse in 1956. Must have been all that “heritage not hate” going on then. ---
**Author:** ![pencilpusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d6d6ee/32.png) [@pencilpusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pencilpusher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/25 "2003-07-29T23:28:41Z")
Is this anything like the bumper sticker I saw today that says “You wouldn’t understand… It’s a black thing”? I think they are both stupid but they do serve a purpose… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/26 "2003-07-29T23:49:10Z")
I don’t usually find things to agree with **Arcite** on, but there are a **lot** of stars-and-bars displayed around here, and the general sentiment seems to be that it’s a symbol of regional identity, not adherence to any of the negatives I grew up in the North thinking the South stood for. One bumper I saw had the stars and bars, a HRC [=] logo, and a “I support the NAACP” sticker – you figure out his politics! 🙂 I’m quite sure there are few unreconstructed redneck bigots, but there’s also a great deal of interracial civility and progressive thought – Franklin County NC averages about one step more liberal on a ten-point scale than the similar-sized Lewis County NY, based on my personal experiences in both areas. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/27 "2003-07-29T23:51:59Z")
I’d be willing to believe that the intent of many people displaying that sticker is the more innocent interpretation, which I paraphrase as “I don’t display the confederate flag out of hate, I display it to show my southern pride.” But that is a **doozy** of a second meaning, which basically comes down to “what you call a hate crime, I call a ‘Southern Thing’…that’s just the way we do things down here, a-hyuk.” The first meaning sounds like the statement of a fairly enlightened person who wants to be clear that he’s not a bigot. I’d think that once the second potential meaning was pointed out to this type of person, he’d think twice about putting that message on his car. For what it’s worth, what I’m calling the “second meaning” here is the one that immediately came to mind when I read the sticker, and it made me want to be sick. ---
**Author:** ![Nichol\_storm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Nichol\_storm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nichol_storm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/28 "2003-07-30T00:01:52Z")
Saw a bumper sticker I rather liked earlier today at the Jackson, MS airport. It read: _Keep the flag, change the meaning_ or words to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/29 "2003-07-30T01:50:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chattywine \* > \*\*Was I the only person who thought the bumpersticker was referring to Forrest Gump? > \*\* _sigh_ No. And I feel silly, 'cause I KNOW about N.B. Forrest. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/30 "2003-07-30T02:02:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by finette6 \* > \*\*Actually, I took this wording differently than anyone else- > > I saw it as (perhaps) incredibly caustic sarcasm- saying that all “southern things” are as reprehensible as hate crimes. This is probably less likely than the other interpretations (about the flag, justifying hate crimes, etc), but it’s what I thought when I read the OP. > > finette, who can’t believe the amount of ‘stars’n’bars’ crap she sees in Upstate NY! \*\* That was my first impression, too. I thought it was another way of saying - “All Southerners are racist hillbillies,” which is in its own way just as offensive. BTW - I’m not surprised there are confederate flags in New York. If they’ve made it up here, likely they’re all over. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/31 "2003-07-30T02:33:53Z")
I’ve always lived in the South. When I was growing up in the Forties and Fifties, it was not unusual for students in Southern schools to be the “Rebels” and to wave Confederate flags at football games. With the consciousness-raising of the Sixties, people began to be aware that African-Americans resented the the Stars and Bars. Now, at least in Tennessee, the Confederate flag is generally understood by the educated to be a symbol of bigotry. The people who have it in their yards and on their cards may or may not realize that that is the message they are sending. Just a couple of miles from me there is a cheap and gaudy painted statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on the side of the interstate. Everyone knows what it stands for. In my opinion, some idiot probably thought that the bumper sticker was funny. But I feel reasonably certain that it was a way of saying killing Blacks is not a hate crime. It’s just part of being Southern. The flag is most likely part of the sticker because of its symbolism – not because the words are about the flag. Lots of Southerners, including myself, are proud of our traditions and customs without associating any bigotry with that heritage. I’ve never minded not having the Confederate flag around. But I really do miss hearing the song _Dixie_. For me it was about heritage, not about racism. But it is certainly not as important to me as the feelings of those it offends. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/32 "2003-07-30T03:39:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, at least in Tennessee, the Confederate flag is generally understood by the educated to be a symbol of bigotry. Well, obviously I’m uneducated, as I think of it as _The Dukes of Hazard_ and am surprised I feel stupid for that. Not only that, but I didn’t know “with obligatory Stars and Bars, naturally” was a Confederate flag. But it’s sad that it has come to that, as I really liked the dukes of hazard, and wasn’t aware of the symbolism. Either way, I think the bumper sticker is bad, even without the stars and bars. Not terribly much else it could mean other than in other states it would be a hate crime, here it’s our culture. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/33 "2003-07-30T04:02:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bugnorton \* > \*\*The swastika was a Native American symbol long before hitler, but guess what, they figured out that it had become about hate not heritage along about 1939, go figure huh. \*\* _nitpick_ The swastika was originally an Indian symbol (more specifically, real Aryan, I think, which is why Hitler adopted it). It means good luck or something, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/34 "2003-07-30T04:15:30Z")
The swastika was a common symbol in India, among various Native American tribes, _and_ the Norse and Germanic tribes. And I wouldn’t be surprised if it had been used in other cultures as well; it’s not a particularly complicated thing to construct. _rummage rummage_ Good luck, prosperity: Greek, Chinese, Indian, Celtic, Western Saharan tribes. The above + the migrations of humanity: Hopi. ( From: [http://www.ddmba.org/ddp/chanmag/sum2000.html#swastika](http://www.ddmba.org/ddp/chanmag/sum2000.html#swastika) ) ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/35 "2003-07-30T04:25:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Ah, a challenge! > > Actually, if they are talking about Nathan Bedford Forrest, perhaps they mean his position during the last years of his life. > > I read in a history of the Civil War that Forrest (who founded the Ku Klux Klan) became a Christian during the last years of his life, and attempted to disband the KKK. > > [Cite.](http://www.co.forrest.ms.us/forrest.html) > > I wish I could convince myself that this was what the bumper sticker you saw was talking about. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* For that you’d have to lose the power of Bigot Vision which stops you from seeing reality. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/36 "2003-07-30T12:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > \*\*My interpretation of the bumper sticker (which, admittedly, could be off-base) caused me to believe it was saying “Beating, dragging, lynching, etc. a gay person/black person/whoever isn’t a hate crime. It’s just something we do in the South.” \*\* My interpretation is that the “hate crime” the sticker refers to is the actual flying of that flag. See, he’s taking the furor over the flying of the flag on government buildings and morphed it into thinking that “PC do-gooders and northerners” equate flying the flag with all the things you mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/37 "2003-07-30T12:36:32Z")
You’d love this bumper sticker then, as seen by me somewhere just outside Urbana, Illinois: “If we knew it’d be that much trouble, we’d have picked the damn cotton ourselves.” No shades of meaning there. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/38 "2003-07-30T12:38:17Z")
[Here’s a variation of that bumper sticker](http://www.wilcopress.com/stickers/bumper_stickers/images/image_rebel_bst/RG073.jpg). The one I saw did not have a confederate flag, so far as I remember. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/39 "2003-07-30T12:41:48Z")
I’ll reiterate what I said earlier – I’ve never heard _anyone_, even at the height of the flag-over-the-state-capitol controversy, equate flying or displaying the Confederate flag with a hate crime. Symbol of oppression, sure. Hate crime? Nope. I think **Zoe** ’s right regarding the message on the bumper sticker. I live near Birmingham, Alabama. You can’t swing a dead cat around here without getting it tangled up in at least one Confederate flag. And to tell you the truth, I don’t mind the flag that much. (Although there is one gentleman who lives about a mile from me who mounted a flagpole in his yard, apparently for the sole purpose of flying a Confederate flag with the image of Hank Williams, Jr. centered on it. Bleah.) As I said, I love a lot of things about the South, and I choose to view the flag as representative of those things. But to see it equated with a message as evil as the one displayed on the bumper sticker sickens me. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/40 "2003-07-30T13:38:51Z")
Well, put me down as another who first thought it was a sarcastic smack at Southerners, kind of like a picture of a black man being lynched, with the caption “It’s not _hate_, it’s our _heritage_” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681.md?page=3)