# "It's not a HATE CRIME ..." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681 "2003-07-29T16:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/61 "2003-08-01T20:13:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > **My father-in-law is an avid gun collector, and as such he attends many weekend gun shows. I’ve tagged along with him on some of these excursions, and it would amaze you the crap people sell at these things. I’ve seen the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” pamphlets, KKK literature, Nazi literature, and other blatantly racist stuff. I bet I could find this sticker (or one very similar to it) at one of these gun shows, and I would further bet the people selling it would tell me my interpretation of its meaning is the correct one.** **Disclaimer** My Daddy doesn’t believe in or support any of the aforementioned people represented at the gun shows. He is a true collector of guns (doesn’t hunt and has never shot a living thing in his life). He goes to the shows to find new pieces for his collections and sometimes works the shows to sell his merchandise. In fact, he tells **Sauron** all the time not to make any sudden moves around these people and to speak very slowly and avoid eye contact because most of them “are idiots.” 🙂 End of disclaimer… ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/62 "2003-08-01T20:32:40Z")
Whoops. Sorry, hon. I guess I shoulda made that more clear, huh? For the record, **Aries28** ’s dad is completely sane. As far as I know, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/63 "2003-08-02T08:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrightNShiny \* > \*\*The Confederacy’s whole reason for being was slavery. \*\* You misspelled “states’ rights”. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/64 "2003-08-02T10:04:52Z")
**Rilchiam** : HAHAHA! The average person then had no stake in the existence of slavery. The main motivation was more “Them goddamn yankees are coming down her to tell us what to do. Johnny, get yer gun!” This doesn’t mean they didn’t support the idea of slavery, though, and the yankees, by and large, didn’t consider blacks any more human than the rebels, sadly. I don’t really know what the average yankee soldier’s motivation was, though people back then didn’t really need much of an excuse to fight. ---
**Author:** ![Skillet38](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Skillet38](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skillet38)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/65 "2003-08-02T12:41:08Z")
This thread perfectly illustrates the raison d’etre behind this sticker. The confederate flag is under constant attack. If you don’t believe it, reread this thread 😉 I disagree with Sauron’s interpretation of it’s meaning. It’s a defense of the flag plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/66 "2003-08-02T17:08:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CherryBomb \* > \*\*Can I just say that this was the very type of thing I needed to read to make it worth having gotten out of bed today? > > Thanks, **Mockingbird** , I’ll be using that as a sig if you don’t mind… > > You may now resume your previously serious discussion. \*\* Be my guest, be my guest, put that sig line to the test… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/67 "2003-08-02T17:13:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by An Arky \* > \*\ ***Rilchiam** : HAHAHA! > > The average person then had no stake in the existence of slavery. The main motivation was more “Them goddamn yankees are coming down her to tell us what to do. Johnny, get yer gun!” This doesn’t mean they didn’t support the idea of slavery, though, and the yankees, by and large, didn’t consider blacks any more human than the rebels, sadly. I don’t really know what the average yankee soldier’s motivation was, though people back then didn’t really need much of an excuse to fight. \*\* The North was fighting for the same thing the South was: $$$$$. The South faced massive economic losses if the North outlawed slavery (I always found it interesting that when Northern states outlawed slavery, they generally included provisions that gave you several years to _sell your slaves South_. Not set them free, but sell them to someone else.) If the CSA had become an independent nation, the North would have had to pay import taxes on all the raw goods they bought from the South, causing massive economic impacts. The rank and file of the armies, however, didn’t have enough money to be worried about, and they certainly didn’t give a big fat hairy one what happened to the rich people. So the government in the South whooped a lot of emotion about them damn Yankees comind down here to tell us how to live. And the government in the North whooped up a lot of emotion about the evils of slavery, and treason. And both sides resorted to drafts pretty early on. Some people see the flag as a symbol of treason and defeat. Other people see it as a symbol of hatred, racism, and slavery. And other people see it as a symbol of a people who were proud, independent, and willing to go down fighting rather than just knuckling under. I don’t agree with slavery, or with the financial issues that really started the war, but I can’t help being proud of a culture that was willing to fight on in the face of sure defeat for the right to live as they see fit. You know, the way some folks get a swell of pride when they look at that symbol of treason with the red-and-white stripes and the field of stars in the corner. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/68 "2003-08-02T18:00:51Z")
I have no idea what joe-average’s reason for supporting or not supporting the Confederacy was, and I didn’t make any claim to know. I stated the obvious _fact_ that the reason for the formation of the Confederacy was to protect the institution of slavery, and the reason for the 1956 flag changes were to protest desegregation. My _opinion_ is that these things are what associated the stars-and-bars with racism. It was not a general bash on all things Southern. Now, to continue the hijack, in the GD thread about the confederacy, **MEBuckner** was good enough to post the following: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*Some primary source documents in which several of the seceding states discussed their motivations for secession: > > [The Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/scarsec.htm). > > [A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/missec.htm). > > [Georgia’s secession declaration](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/geosec.htm). (Sorry, no flowery title.) > > [A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/texsec.htm). > > There was also a speech given by Confederate Vice President Alexander H. Stephens on March 21, 1861 in Savannah, Georgia, in which he gave his views on the advantages of the new government and constitution and the cause of the “late rupture and present revolution”, the so-called [“Cornerstone Speech”](http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/corner.html). > > These documents primarily pertain to the South’s reasons for _secession_; the causes for the _war_ would include the North’s reasons for not acquiescing in the dissolution of the American national union, and also the specific political and tactical decisions both sides made in the run-up to armed conflict (such as the South’s decision to fire on Fort Sumter). \*\* If you click on any of the links to the states’ seccesion documents you will see the word slavery appear over and over. People can pretend that the Confederacy had nothing to do with slavery all they want, but that doesn’t make it true. … And that was very funny, **Rilchiam**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/69 "2003-08-02T18:05:08Z")
Whether or not it’s intended to offend, the bumper sticker is stupid. Anyone who puts it on their car–IMHO–is stupid too. ---
**Author:** ![Jaade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@Jaade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaade)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681/70 "2003-08-03T16:51:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrightNShiny \* > \*\*Oh, whatever. The flag was changed in 1956 to become closer to the stars and bars specifically to protest desegregation. I was responding to the statement that the 1956 flag was “a flag of tradition.” The 1956 flag is a flag of racism. > > The Confederacy’s whole reason for being was slavery. But that’s perhaps a topic for another thread. > > Boo-hoo. > > Definitely. > > I don’t see how this is relevant, but I’ll play. If the South didn’t want their economy destroyed, they souldn’t have seceded. But what does that have to do with a racist bumper sticker or racist flags? \*\* Boo-hoo? ~sighs~ Not even going to bother. I think we are fairly split down the middle here on what the flag means, what the bumper sticker meant and what the South is all about. Thank you **Sauron** and **Zoe** , you guys are putting my feelings into words better than I have in this thread. > [@](#): > > Windwalker: > Any Southerners or cultural experts want to relieve me of my ignorance about what exactly constitutes the Southern identity? In my opinion, there are many things that constitute the Southern identity. Let me see if I can do half a good a job as Zoe. History (and so it’s clear to some people, I mean FAMILY), respect, appreciation for music, food, love, chivalry, politeness, low country boils, God (for a lot of us), pride in ourselves and WHO we are, SEC football (Go Dawgs!), being true ourselves and our friends, always being there for people we love, being steadfast and honest, a slower pace of life, enjoying your time…fishing, hunting, cooking, spending time with family and friends, camping…honor, dedication, being hard working and modest. Not all apply to every Southerner, but this is a major part of how I identify myself and my friends/family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-a-hate-crime/191681.md?page=3)