# It's not even winter and I already hate you motherfuckers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354 "2013-12-15T04:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/41 "2013-12-16T03:44:31Z")
> [@Ispolkom](#): > > I thought if you rent a house you’re responsible for shoveling, just like you have to mow the grass. That was always the case when I rented. If it’s in the lease, or you’re in an apartment, though, rant away. I always thought that the sound of my apartment’s sidewalk being shoveled before dawn was always quite restful. As far as I’m aware, that should be outlined in your lease, unless your local regulations say otherwise. We used to rent a house, and specifically contracted (in writing, in the lease) to get a monthly rent reduction in exchange for handling shoveling, mowing, and leaf removal. Eventually we said it wasn’t worth that, and on our next lease renewal, we gave up responsibility for those duties; it was then noted in the lease that the landlords were responsible for all of that, and they had a landscape/snow removal service handle it. Currently we’re in a 3-flat, and our landlord’s service is a bit slow, but at least the lot gets plowed out quickly (which is easy - pickup truck with a blade pulls up and zip zip zip, it’s done). ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/42 "2013-12-16T03:46:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It never ceases to amaze me that someone comes in and points out a flaw in someone’s rant and then supposedly smart people come in and irrationally defend the flawed version instead of acknowledging that flaw. > > Go actually look at the OP. Does it name any specific people? Nope. It just condemns every person who shovels their driveway but not their sidewalk. When you cast a wide brush, you are going to wind up insulting people who do not feel they deserve to be insulted. Those people are, at the very least, going to feel the need to defend themselves. > > Stop coming up with reasons to condemn others and direct your gaze inward. Find out why acknowledging a flaw in an argument is such a horrible thing. Maybe you are the one who feels guilty for condemning people, as you didn’t stop to think about the full picture, that they might have reasons for doing what they do. > > And, because I know how your guys’ minds work: I don’t even have a freaking sidewalk and never have. Tell us, wise one. What’s a good reason for not shoveling one’s sidewalk? “I’m not required to by law!” isn’t a good reason, just so you know. Because as an avid sidewalker user, the only reasons I can come up with are physical handicap and laziness. While the first is sad, it doesn’t prevent someone else from doing the job. We live in a society. Sidewalks are a part of society. Just like roads. I pay my taxes so that I can walk safely to work every day. I shouldn’t have to worry about breaking my neck or getting hit by a car after being forced to walk in the street just because Mr. Lazy Bones can’t be arsed to do what he’s supposed to do as a responsible homeowner. ---
**Author:** ![caused\_two](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@caused\_two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caused_two)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/43 "2013-12-16T04:12:08Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Yes, and it’s measured in the Richter scale; same as here BTW. 😃 It also slides, same as here again, and burns (advantage to us on this one). But at least it’s unlikely to get blown away by 140+ mph winds. Actually, most use the moment magnitude scale now. > **[Moment magnitude scale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_magnitude_scale)** > > The moment magnitude scale (MMS; denoted explicitly with Mw  or Mwg, and generally implied with use of a single M for magnitude) is a measure of an earthquake's magnitude ("size" or strength) based on its seismic moment. Mw  was defined in a 1979 paper by Thomas C. Hanks and Hiroo Kanamori. Similar to the local magnitude/Richter scale (ML ) defined by Charles Francis Richter in 1935, it uses a logarithmic scale; small earthquakes have approximately the same magnitudes on both scales. Despite t Mo... ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/44 "2013-12-16T04:12:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If the adjoining snow melts, it can slick up the sidewalk when it refreezes. That’s why I’m saying people should throw down some rock salt. It’s cheap and easy and it can really keep people from hurting themselves. Not a bad idea - I usually keep an eye on my sidewalk and throw down some of [this](http://www.windsorsalt.com/de_icing/t_salts.html.htm)if things are melting and running. Walking today was a bitch - the chinook we’re having had melted a lot of snow, and it had run down the sidewalks and re-frozen. > [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > As far as I’m aware, that should be outlined in your lease, unless your local regulations say otherwise.\ That’s my understanding, too - either the home-owner does it, or the renter does it, but someone has to do it, and they make arrangements as to who that should be. > [@monstro](#): > > \ > We live in a society. Sidewalks are a part of society. Just like roads. I pay my taxes so that I can walk safely to work every day. I shouldn’t have to worry about breaking my neck or getting hit by a car after being forced to walk in the street just because Mr. Lazy Bones can’t be arsed to do what he’s supposed to do as a responsible homeowner. It’s the Free Riders, I think - they like to have the comforts of society, but they don’t want to do their part to contribute to them. ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/45 "2013-12-16T14:29:11Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Walking today was a bitch - the chinook we’re having had melted a lot of snow, and it had run down the sidewalks and re-frozen. I thought a chinook was a salmon. So I’m wondering how the salmon you’re eating is thawing the snow… Yup, it is a [salmon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinook_salmon). ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/46 "2013-12-16T14:40:07Z")
Snow? What is this snow you speak of? I haven’t seen snow since I bought my gas monster snow blower. I expect that this simple purchase will ward off any snowfall deeper than 2" for my location so that I can look at my never-used-too-much-money-snow-blower in April and think about what fun I would have had with the money had I not sunk it into this precious-garage-space-wasting contraption… ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/47 "2013-12-16T14:44:57Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Wait, some people’s excuse for not shoveling is ‘wah! the township should do it for me!’?? No, my REASON is that the town does do it for me. Why would I spend extra time doing something that isn’t my responsibility? Like I said, if you want to traipse around on the sidewalk before the plows come through (which is usually around 7 or 8 AM or so) then you better bring your snowshoes. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/48 "2013-12-16T14:48:35Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Yup. Fuck that. My letter carrier husband broke his ankle because snow covered up ice while walking his route. I broke my wrist (on our property) for the same reason. You can’t just “learn to walk on it” if there’s ice underneath or if it’s piled up high enough that it’s difficult to even walk through. Exactly. I’ve lived in a city where shoveling wasn’t expected and it was a royal pain-in-the-ass to get around town without twisting an ankle. Look, I love the winter and hope to always live somewhere where there is snow, but shovel the public thoroughfare if it’s your responsibility. Hell, I even get my neighbor’s walk if I’m out before him. It only takes me an extra four minutes or so, so why not? ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/49 "2013-12-16T16:28:01Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > . Hell, I even get my neighbor’s walk if I’m out before him. It only takes me an extra four minutes or so, so why not? Four minutes to do a whole sidewalk?? Clearly you do not live in an outer suburb, where the one acre minimum lot size translates into 60 feet or more of sidewalk per house. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/50 "2013-12-16T16:37:13Z")
> [@Kelevra](#): > > I thought a chinook was a salmon. So I’m wondering how the salmon you’re eating is thawing the snow… > > Yup, it is a [salmon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinook_salmon). It’s also a [wind.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinook_wind) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/51 "2013-12-16T16:44:35Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Four minutes to do a whole sidewalk?? Clearly you do not live in an outer suburb, where the one acre minimum lot size translates into 60 feet or more of sidewalk per house. ☹ No, I live in the city. A sidewalk is about 30’ x maybe 4-5’ wide. To do my sidewalk takes about 4-5 minutes of shoveling, unless there’s more than a couple inches of snow. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/52 "2013-12-16T17:39:54Z")
> [@Ispolkom](#): > > I thought if you rent a house you’re responsible for shoveling, just like you have to mow the grass. That was always the case when I rented. If it’s in the lease, or you’re in an apartment, though, rant away. I always thought that the sound of my apartment’s sidewalk being shoveled before dawn was always quite restful. Our landlord lives in the house. It’s very large. My boyfriend and I rent one portion of the house as a separate unit, as do two other tenants. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/53 "2013-12-16T17:58:13Z")
> [@Kelevra](#): > > I thought a chinook was a salmon. So I’m wondering how the salmon you’re eating is thawing the snow… > > Yup, it is a [salmon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinook_salmon). > [@Procrustus](#): > > It’s also a [wind.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinook_wind) Yup. We get chinooks regularly in Calgary; the wind comes from the west (where we keep the Rockies), then the temperature warms up significantly in very little time and melts most of the snow. ---
**Author:** ![Heropsychodreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Heropsychodreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heropsychodreamer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/54 "2013-12-16T18:28:04Z")
Every town and state varies when it comes to sidewalk cleaning. In my town, you have 24 hours from the end of the snowfall to clear your sidewalk. For this weekend’s snow, it ended around 8:00 sunday morning and while most people had everything cleaned up that day, I waited until early Monday morning and it was clear by 7:00am, with an hour to spare. There were lots of footprints from probably pissed off people, but it was done within the alloted time frame. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/55 "2013-12-16T23:42:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Not if you throw down some rock salt. > > If you leave snow on the sidewalk, it doesn’t stay nice and powdery. It tends to gets hard and icy, especially as it gets compressed by everyone and their mama’s feet. Which then makes it even more of a pain to shovel it when you finally get around to do it. Rock salt too? I guess I’ve never lived anyplace where people had trouble walking in snow, but then when I lived in the frozen north, I lived in rural areas. Not only no sidewalks, we usually had to plow the road too. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Walking on freshly-fallen snow is fine (if a little difficult - think walking in deep sand); when the snow is packed down, it turns into a slippery surface. Thawing and re-freezing turns it into ice. > > Clearing the freshly-fallen snow prevents it from packing down and eliminates the thawing/re-freezing issues. A bare sidewalk is not slippery - there’s nothing to make it slippery. If you are having thawing and re-freezing, there is going to be melted snow from the lawns turning into ice on the sidewalks. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/56 "2013-12-17T02:53:25Z")
This is the first year my kid’s on a school bus. While it’s not a busy street, I still wasn’t comfortable with the fact that we had to walk on the street because so few people had shoveled, and a few that did did a horrible job. It stopped snowing yesterday morning and these same neighbors didn’t shovel during the day today, so unless they’re shoveling right now, 48 hours after the storm we still have to walk in the street. It was only a few inches. It wasn’t a blizzard. It was in the forecast since last Tuesday or Wednesday, so it wasn’t a surprise. Two of the houses that didn’t shovel have several adults living in them. Walking on packed snow is slippery, but walking through unpacked snow is not exactly a treat. If it’s deeper than an inch or two, it’s deeper than my boots and my feet get cold and wet. Plus it’s hard to walk through physically compared to just walking on pavement. So I heartily endorse this pitting ---
**Author:** ![Domesticated\_Primate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@Domesticated\_Primate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Domesticated_Primate)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/57 "2013-12-17T03:23:56Z")
Something I hate: when someone with a corner lot shovels the sidewalks but doesnt cut a path at the corner between sidewalk and street. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/58 "2013-12-17T07:06:46Z")
Where do people who have to shovel the sidewalk put the snow? They can’t put it in the street, (based on what people were saying upthread), so where does it go? If other snowy states are like Alaska if you try and put it in your yard, you’ve got Mount Everest in about two snowfalls. And how far do they have to shovel it? Along the whole block? Or just in front of their own house? Does anyone have any idea what a four foot tall snow berm that’s been snowplowed up onto the sidewalk weighs or what the tensile strength is? It’s like a pile of concrete. It can’t be done with a snow shovel, not in any 4 minutes (as stated up thread…WTH?). And it sure as hell isn’t going to get done after someone gets home from work, we’re talking a several day long project here. In the meantime, while the person works at it, walkers are going to have to go around anyway. Granted, my snow experiences consists only of Alaska (where every place I lived the city did snow removal, thank GOODNESS, or it just didn’t get done at all), Colorado is 'snow? what snow? it was here a minute ago, now it’s 70 degrees again (and don’t I LOVE that?!), and Seattle, where a 1/4 inch of snow brought the city to its knees, but like CO, it’s gone in a day or so. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/59 "2013-12-17T12:25:42Z")
You shovel or snowblow it into your yard and into the strip between the sidewalk and the street. Yes, it piles up sometimes. You’re typically responsible for the length of your property. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/60 "2013-12-17T12:35:15Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Where do people who have to shovel the sidewalk put the snow? They can’t put it in the street, (based on what people were saying upthread), so where does it go? If other snowy states are like Alaska if you try and put it in your yard, you’ve got Mount Everest in about two snowfalls. And how far do they have to shovel it? Along the whole block? Or just in front of their own house? Everywhere I’ved lived that snows regularly (NJ and VA) specifies that sidewalks much be cleared. Not just the front of the house. All sidewalks adjoining the property. Which totally makes sense. What’s the point of clearing just the front, when pedestrians (including letter carriers, pizza delivery guys, police officers, little kids on their way to school) can theoretically come from all directions? > [@](#): > > Does anyone have any idea what a four foot tall snow berm that’s been snowplowed up onto the sidewalk weighs or what the tensile strength is? It’s like a pile of concrete. It can’t be done with a snow shovel, not in any 4 minutes (as stated up thread…WTH?). And it sure as hell isn’t going to get done after someone gets home from work, we’re talking a several day long project here. In the meantime, while the person works at it, walkers are going to have to go around anyway. I don’t know if my locale will waive sidewalk clearance if the snow is particularly heavy. It would certainly make sense. However, we’re lucky if we get just a few inches over the course of a year. It’s overwhelming if you let it pile up over multiple storm events, but it’s not that hard to lick it down if you keep up with it routinely. I once saw an old lady take a really hard fall while navigating an icy sidewalk on her way to a bus stop. She laughed it off, but it made my hip hurt looking at her limping along. Because I’m a klutz on a good day and I really need my constitutionals, I don’t appreciate snow and ice on the sidewalks. Not when they can be avoided with a little conscientiousness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354.md?page=4)