# It's not even winter and I already hate you motherfuckers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354 "2013-12-15T04:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/81 "2013-12-18T13:52:13Z")
My SO thinks I’m a little OCD when it comes to our sidewalk. We’ve got a corner lot house and there’s a little bodega across the street from us so there’s a bit of foot traffic around. Whenever there’s even a light coating of flakes I’m out there shoveling because I hate it when the snow gets compounded down and doesn’t clear up for the rest of the season. I know it’s **stupid** to ask, but if pedestrians could just wait until I could shovel it, I’d be sooo happy to provide them with the clearest sidewalks in Minnesota. I remember shoveling last year during a major snowfall. I cleared one half of the width of the sidewalk so people had a path to walk on while I got to the other half. A guy came walking by and after stomping his feet clean on the empty spot I just made, proceeded to walk on the unshoveled part all the way down. :mad: One more rant. My pug hates the cold and snow. He shivers while I’m inside putting on a sweater and booties. When I walk him on our sidewalk outside, it’s just so he’ll go potty in the 0º F weather while I hold onto his leash. If you, Mr Asshole with the husky, see my dog, maybe walk over to the other side of the street. Or, instead of both of our dogs barking at each other at the end of their respective leashes, you keep fucking walking instead of standing there like a loose-jawed drooling dumbass at the end of our driveway while I’m bringing the pug back inside. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/82 "2013-12-18T14:29:23Z")
Maybe I missed it, but why can’t you people just walk on snow? Haven’t you got shoes? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/83 "2013-12-18T14:45:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Maybe I missed it, but why can’t you people just walk on snow? Haven’t you got shoes? 1. Compressed snow turns into ice. 2. Shoes? Try boots. Even then, a couple hours of snow accumulation can produce snow levels that would be higher than your boots. Sometimes waist high. Unless you want your crotch getting all cold and wet, shovelling is a necessity. 3. Laws. Fines will happen. 4. Insurance. As was pointed out earlier, suing due to slippage using a public accessible sidewalk and up goes one’s rates. 5. It’s not easy walking on snow. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/84 "2013-12-18T14:48:16Z")
You are personally liable for injuries sustained by people walking on a public right of way? I’m going to need a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/85 "2013-12-18T14:52:01Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > It’s kind of nice having a functional state government. I also like not living on a gigantic fault line. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/86 "2013-12-18T14:56:07Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Calgary has a snitch line for unshovelled sidewalks, too; I recall a couple of years ago, the city announced that we shouldn’t bother calling it any longer, because there were so many calls and unshovelled walks backed up that there was no way they could get to all of them. That infuriated me; if unshovelled, dangerous sidewalks are such a big problem here, then you need to do something about it other than telling people to just shut up about it. Did you know there’s an app for that? Seriously. 🙂 311 has a new app where you take a picture of the un-shoveled walkway and upload it along with the address of the house. Handy and a good record for yourself. (If you have a smartphone). People on my street are great about shovelling, and we even shovel each other’s if there is time. I really like my street. However, on my walk to the train, I’d say about 50% of the homes don’t shovel their walkway. Considering it’s a busy walking route to the train, you can imagine that all that packed down snow is really slippery. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/87 "2013-12-18T14:58:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You are personally liable for injuries sustained by people walking on a public right of way? I’m going to need a cite for that. You mean BESIDES the one given in post 29 of this very thread? Who owns the sidewalk? Slip-fall liability can vary for different types of property owners and occupants. •Commercial Property: Businesses must take reasonable care for the safety of customers and clients, also called invitees. •Residential Property: Landowners and occupants can be held liable, depending on who controlled the condition that caused the slip-fall accident. In general, the responsible party must take reasonable steps to keep the property safe. •Government Property: Special rules apply when a government entity owns property. Slip and fall victims usually must file a claim before a lawsuit can proceed. Laws may also limit the government’s liability, or give the government immunity. What caused the slip and fall? Slip-fall lawsuits must be caused by a defect in the property, such as improper construction, a building code violation, or a poorly maintained surface. Icy sidewalks fall into the latter category. Do local sidewalk laws apply? Some jurisdictions have laws that specifically make a landowner or occupant responsible for keeping public sidewalks clear of ice and snow. Violating these laws usually leads to a fine. Other jurisdictions’ laws say just the opposite — that there’s no duty to clear icy sidewalks. Still others say owners and occupants can wait for a “reasonable time” after a snow or ice storm before clearing icy sidewalks. It’s probably a good idea to check with a local attorney about laws where you live. Regardless of icy sidewalk laws, general negligence principles apply in slip-fall cases. For example, if you start clearing a sidewalk but actually make conditions even more dangerous, you could be held liable in a slip-fall lawsuit. What remedies are available? Icy sidewalk slip-fall suits usually seek money to cover economic damages like medical expenses and lost wages. Punitive damages may also be available, depending on the facts of your case. [http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2012/02/icy-sidewalks-can-lead-to-slip-and-fall-suits.html](http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2012/02/icy-sidewalks-can-lead-to-slip-and-fall-suits.html) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/88 "2013-12-18T15:04:23Z")
Tangential rant follows. I occasionally need to have my parking lot where I work plowed. I used to pay a local guy $25 and he would plow it in 10 minutes. It was side work for him to have drinking money. Hell, he typically would be plowing with a can of beer between his legs. Nobody around here does this anymore. The past few years I have had to contract for the season with a company that plows anytime it snows and charges $125. Often it snows and I don’t need plowing. I’ve paid $250 for Saturday and Sunday plowing (when I was closed) and the snow changed to rain and melted away Sunday night anyway. /back to sidewalks ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/89 "2013-12-19T01:47:20Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > \ > I know it’s **stupid** to ask, but if pedestrians could just wait until I could shovel it, I’d be sooo happy to provide them with the clearest sidewalks in Minnesota. I remember shoveling last year during a major snowfall. I cleared one half of the width of the sidewalk so people had a path to walk on while I got to the other half. A guy came walking by and after stomping his feet clean on the empty spot I just made, proceeded to walk on the unshoveled part all the way down. :mad:\ That drives me a little crazy, too - I get out and shovel really quickly after the snow stops, but there are always compressed footprints already, that are so much more difficult to shovel than un-compressed snow. Nothing to be done about it, I know that, but I’d still like it if no one walked on my sidewalk until after I shovelled. 🙂 > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Maybe I missed it, but why can’t you people just walk on snow? Haven’t you got shoes? Read the thread. We’ve gone over this in detail. > [@EmAnJ](#): > > Did you know there’s an app for that? Seriously. 🙂 311 has a new app where you take a picture of the un-shoveled walkway and upload it along with the address of the house. Handy and a good record for yourself. > > (If you have a smartphone)\ I did not know that! I am going to bust so many people! [These were the sidewalks on my street today.](http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s142/featherlou/Winter%20Scenes/SAM_3778_zpsa9efa7d2.jpg) What you can’t see is the ice under that snow - first it melted, then it froze, then it snowed on the ice so you can’t see it, but you can still slip on it. Whee! ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/90 "2013-12-19T03:01:06Z")
I spent about 45 minutes after work trying to widen the curb cut (we live on a corner lot) using the ice chipper and the heavy steel spade, and then clearing the storm drain because we have melting temps for the next few days and I don’t want to deal with a lake in the street. I have to get through 4 feet of ice the plows left behind - they like to push the snow down the street and then veer off and plow it onto our corners to dump it off before the next block. The result is a 2-foot bank in front of everyone’s driveway and a 4-foot bank at the corners. Grrrr! But I’m actually here to bitch about the god awful stench that comes up out of the storm drain when it’s been covered for a couple of days. Ugh. It shocks me every year. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/91 "2013-12-19T04:02:09Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Yes, and it’s measured in the Richter scale; same as here BTW. 😃 It also slides, same as here again, and burns (advantage to us on this one). But at least it’s unlikely to get blown away by 140+ mph winds. What is this thing “snow” of which they speak? Never mind, I’ll read about it tomorrow when I am at the beach. You can in turn laugh at me when the next hurricane flattens us. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/92 "2013-12-19T19:11:08Z")
I’ll think about all you “Snow? What’s “snow”?” people next time I think I’ve posted some jibe (like calling all US Americans Southerners) too often. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/93 "2013-12-19T19:37:19Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > You mean BESIDES the one given in post 29 of this very thread? If you want your head to explode, you should read [the Chicago and Illinois law on this](http://www.domu.com/blog/snow-removal-in-chicago-whos-responsible). Basically, the law is in Chicago that you can get fined if you don’t shovel the sidewalk. (But nobody in practice appears to enforce the municipal law.) Illinois’s law on shoveling exempt the natural accumulation of snow in seeking redress from the property owners in a liability lawsuit. So, if that article is correct, basically, if you don’t shovel your walk, since it’s a natural accumulation, you can’t be held liable for injury. However, if you do shovel your walk and somebody slips and falls from the unnatural accumulation, you can be held liable. > [@](#): > > So basically there are three ways an injured person can recover for a slip-and-fall caused by snow or ice: > > A residential or commercial property owner or tenant was contractually required (for example, by lease or condominium declaration) to shovel away ice and snow, but failed to reasonably comply with that obligation. > > A non-residential property owner actually shoveled away ice or snow, but created an “unnatural accumulation,” aggravated a natural condition, or performed the work negligently. > > Any property owner, lessee, occupant, or manager engaged in clear wrongdoing, deliberately causing an injury while shoveling ice or snow. So if that reading of the laws are correct, you’re better off from a liability standpoint not shoveling your snow in Illinois. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/94 "2013-12-19T20:21:52Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > My SO thinks I’m a little OCD when it comes to our sidewalk. My hero. ---
**Author:** ![Gateway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dbc845/32.png) [@Gateway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gateway)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/95 "2013-12-19T20:47:27Z")
OP, Why does walking on the snow on sidewalk or seeing kids with snot piss you off? I can understand the anger with your dog eating crap, but I don’t think everyone’s dog does that. If your neighbors don’t have it on their mind they might not know to clean it up. I suggest talking to them about it. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/96 "2013-12-19T21:02:31Z")
> [@Gateway](#): > > OP, > Why does walking on the snow on sidewalk or seeing kids with snot piss you off? I can understand the anger with your dog eating crap, but I don’t think everyone’s dog does that. If your neighbors don’t have it on their mind they might not know to clean it up. I suggest talking to them about it. Good luck. And how would you like the OP to figure out who’s dog the crap belongs to? DNA testing? A lot of dogs think eating crap is A-OK and I’ll agree with anyone who rails against these savages who just leave it on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Mooch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mooch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mooch)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/97 "2013-12-19T21:11:12Z")
> [@Gateway](#): > > OP, > Why does walking on the snow on sidewalk or seeing kids with snot piss you off? I can understand the anger with your dog eating crap, but I don’t think everyone’s dog does that. If your neighbors don’t have it on their mind they might not know to clean it up. I suggest talking to them about it. Good luck. Your first point is pretty much what this thread has been discussing. Kids with snot all over their face is gross and spreads germs so my kids get sick and then I get sick. Either wipe your kid’s noses for them or teach them to blow their nose. My fucking kids can manage this simple task, why can’t yours (not yours specifically)? Not cleaning up dog shit is just plain fucking disgusting and then by the spring the sidewalks and parkways are minefields with slowly thawing dog shit and dog shit juice running all over the place and what the fuck, why do I have to fucking explain this to you? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/98 "2013-12-19T21:51:31Z")
Sidewalks are city property and so it’s their responsibility to desnow. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/99 "2013-12-19T21:58:15Z")
As has been pointed out a couple of times or more in this thread, that is NOT the case. My city gives homeowners 72 hours from when it quits snowing for the homeowner to clear the sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354/100 "2013-12-19T22:22:03Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > As has been pointed out a couple of times or more in this thread, that is NOT the case. My city gives homeowners 72 hours from when it quits snowing for the homeowner to clear the sidewalk. And as pointed out elsewhere, this is not universal. My town sends out sidewalk plows and I’m sure others do as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-even-winter-and-i-already-hate-you-motherfuckers/676354.md?page=6)