# It's not Krav Manga's United States. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331 "2009-01-08T03:46:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/21 "2009-01-08T13:08:14Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Why do posters here insist not just feeding, but then pitting, what, to me, appear to be blatantly obvious trolls? Whilst understanding your reluctance to mention names, how can you expect a worthwhile response without specifics? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/22 "2009-01-08T14:42:58Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I was completely unaware of this story until I read this thread. I didn’t read the other thread. A quick read through of the article shows that he was not restrained. The lawyer of the dead guy says he was cuffed after he was shot. If it is going to be a proper pitting then lets get the facts straight. If he wasn’t “fully restrained”, I’m fairly certain the correct procedure would be to restrain him, rather than, say, shoot him. IANAC, so maybe I’m wrong here. In any case, while the standard LE definition of “fully restrained” may be “cuffed, hog-tied, and placed in a chest freezer,” or whatever, I’m fairly certain the majority of sane lay people would consider themselves “fully restrained” if three people were sitting on them. The victim was clearly down for a three-count pinfall. [QUOTE=Krav Manga] > [@](#): > > Grant’s mother, Wanda Johnson, and Sophina Mesa, his daughter’s mother, wept uncontrollably as Burris spoke about Grant. They did not speak, but several said Grant, a butcher at a supermarket near the train station where he was killed, was a loving father showing signs of maturation. From [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28521292/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28521292/) [/QUOTE] Oh my god! He was a _butcher_! You’re absolutely right. Or a complete fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/23 "2009-01-08T15:02:49Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Whilst understanding your reluctance to mention names, how can you expect a worthwhile response without specifics? I kinda thought that since this is a thread pitting Krav, and I had said: “Why do posters here insist not just feeding, **but then pitting,** what, to me, appear to be blatantly obvious trolls?” it was fairly obvious who I was referring to. I think Krav is a troll. The guy has 15 posts and a good majority of them are inflammatory blame the victim of a police shooting based only on his “intuition”. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/24 "2009-01-08T15:12:34Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > He’s not saying it would be kosher otherwise, more that as a citizen he is entitled to all the protections afforded to him under the constitution of the United States. Still irrelevant, even a non-citizen in the same position would be entitled to the same rights he’s suggesting were violated here. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/25 "2009-01-08T15:27:32Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Still irrelevant, even a non-citizen in the same position would be entitled to the same rights he’s suggesting were violated here. I think the point is that he’s in America; saying he’s a US citizen is much quicker than saying “he’s a US citizen, legally resident alien granted indefinite domicile or has a current employment, student or hardship visa”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/26 "2009-01-08T15:41:29Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > But, you see, Doors wasn’t restrained, and he had a gun. He also didn’t get shot, and I didn’t say he would have _deserved_ to get shot. Really, there are no parallels at all. I made fun of him for overreacting to getting a light pointed at him. That thread had no parallel at all to incidents where police smear the victim of a shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/27 "2009-01-08T16:15:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think the point is that he’s in America; saying he’s a US citizen is much quicker than saying “he’s a US citizen, legally resident alien granted indefinite domicile or has a current employment, student or hardship visa”. Ah, I see. As in, this incident took place in America, where we don’t summarily execute suspects, as opposed to say, uh, other countries where they do. 😕 I agree that the shooting should not have happened regardless of whether the victim had a rap sheet, but my first impression of **Krav Manga** ’s post in the other thread was more along the lines of this: [QUOTE=Muffin] Yes, Krav, a person in conflict with the law is likely to have a history of being in conflict with the law, so if a law officer makes a hideous error, either deliberately or accidentally, the probability will be that the victim had a history of being in conflict with the law. [/QUOTE] And that tends to indicate not that he deserved to be shot by a cop, but that he is more likely to harbor negative attitudes toward the police which may inspire him to feel persecuted by them and hence be more resistant to police authority. The rest of **Muffin** ’s post, however, I see as trying the cop in the court of public opinion, which is also something we don’t do in America. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/28 "2009-01-08T19:23:18Z")
I see Krav Manga as a racist troll. Call it intuition. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/29 "2009-01-08T21:08:21Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > He was not handcuffed, but he was on the ground with police on top of him.. I think the other officer(s) are lucky no one else was shot. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/30 "2009-01-08T21:28:00Z")
This whole incident was handled horribly. I heard a shitload of helicopters buzzing around my place last night, so I checked the news and found out the protest had turned into a riot, with protesters jumping on and tipping over a cop car, smashing and setting fire to random parked civilian cars, and trashing at least one local small business. Pretty sickening, but not all that surprising - there are always assholes who will join a large group as an excuse to indulge their baser instincts, letting the relative anonymity of being part of a crowd absolve them of any personal responsibility. I’m definitely not saying there’s any justification for their actions (and let’s be fair: the destructive ones were a minority, and obviouly not that concerned with actually protesting the event in the first place), but goddamn, BART and the lawyers and politicians fucked the dog on this one. I mean, I’m not a cop or a politician, and even I could see this coming. An unarmed black man gets shot and killed by a cop in Oakland and you don’t think there’s going to be tension in the community? Do you have even the slightest grasp of the city and its politics/history? Yet all parties basically kept mum on the issue, not even throwing a bone to the aggrieved with a 10-second sound bite to show they gave a shit at all, until Ron Dellums - the most ineffectual mayor in recent memory - finally made a statement last night _after_ the violence went down. Jesus, you’d think they’d at least go through the motions of doing the bare minimum to try and ameliorate the situation. Stupidity all around. Oh, and **Krav Manga** does seem like an ignorant tool, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/31 "2009-01-08T21:37:56Z")
Dellums is the worst thing that could have happened to this city. What a piece of self-absorbed, worthless fluff. He was and is as prepared to lead Oakland as a box of hair. Seems as if the core of the “protesters” were agitators from the Revolution Book State in Frisco. Thanks for helping the populace to get good and riled up, shitheels. One quote from today’s SFGate, in reference to a business called Creative African Braids getting its window smashed: “I feel like the night is going great,” said Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, one of the demonstrators. “I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back. It’s for the murder of a black male.” Sykes, who is black, had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids. “She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life,” Sykes said." Way to perpetrate justice on the evil white overlords, lady. One last note: it’s hard to believe how many folks in the GD thread who suggested that Grant was reaching for a weapon. Cmon! Three cops are sitting on his head and his reaction is to reach for a weapon? Not any reaction I could even imaging having in that situation. That beggars belief, it really does. Oh but he was struggling, the law-and-order bunch say. I dunno, maybe he was struggling because he couldn’t fucking breathe because three fucking cops were sitting on his head? Assholes. Oh yeah, woodstockbirdybird is right on. Fucked the dog but good, indeed. That’s our “leadership” here in Oaktown for ya. God knows what other shit is coming down the pike. ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/32 "2009-01-08T22:23:53Z")
> [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](#): > > I see Krav Manga as a racist troll. Call it intuition. I can almost understand the troll accusation - I was admonished by a moderator for hijacking the thread, and I now understand that debates here must stay within the strict parameters of the opening post. I apologise for straying. But seriously, where do you get the racist claim from? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/33 "2009-01-08T22:26:28Z")
Thanks for the on-location report guys, very informative. Thought I’d note that **woodstockbirdybird** appears to have answered his own observation here: [QUOTE=woodstockbirdybird] …I’m definitely not saying there’s any justification for their actions (and let’s be fair: the destructive ones were a minority, and obviouly not that concerned with actually protesting the event in the first place), but goddamn, BART and the lawyers and politicians fucked the dog on this one… [/quote] With the paragraph that ensues: > [@](#): > > …An unarmed black man gets shot and killed by a cop in Oakland and you don’t think there’s going to be tension in the community? Do you have even the slightest grasp of the city and its politics/history?.. Having said that, with you both all the way. Oh, and **Soul Brother #2**? I’d bet Nia looks for WMDs in her spare time. * * * As for the guest of honor in this roast, has he told you guys just how many black friends he has? ETA: yo’ **Krav** , do tell, just **how many** black friends do you have? ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/34 "2009-01-08T22:27:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Three cops are sitting on his head and his reaction is to reach for a weapon? **Not any reaction I could even imaging having in that situation.** But you can imaging that a police officer’s reaction, in the presents of many witnesses, would be to deliberately shoot a ‘restrained’ man in the back. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/35 "2009-01-08T22:35:36Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > But you can imaging that a police officer’s reaction, in the presents of many witnesses, would be to deliberately shoot a ‘restrained’ man in the back. No need to “imagine” anything Einstein, it’s right there in front of your lyin’ eyes in any number of clips on youtube. Whether it was 'accidental" or not is what is yet TBD… Methinks you and Nia would make a great couple. Quite the intellectual pairing. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/36 "2009-01-08T22:37:00Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > deliberately shoot a ‘restrained’ man in the back. Why do you have quotes around that word? Do you doubt that he was restrained? ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/37 "2009-01-08T22:40:14Z")
I didn’t ever say “deliberately,” pal. I’m not sure how many people in that thread did say it. I don’t think it was deliberate. I think it was a terrible mistake by someone not suited to be a police officer of any stripe. The fact that anyone who would either a) pull his service weapon **and fire i** t thinking it was his fucking Taser, or b) **panic** and feel the need to use deadly force in that situation, three on one, surrounded by his fellow officers was given the opportunity and responsibility to carry a deadly weapons and use it makes me physically ill. There has to be a better way to vet these people. Has to. Interesting to note that much as you assumed Mr. Grant was a criminal; you assumed I thought the officer’s action were deliberate, when there was no information to support either. My assumption you are a racist? Chalk it up to intuition and see how you like it. ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/38 "2009-01-08T22:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Why do you have quotes around that word? Do you doubt that he was restrained? He was in the process of being restrained. ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/39 "2009-01-08T22:43:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting to note that much as you assumed Mr. Grant was a criminal; you assumed I thought the officer’s action were deliberate, when there was no information to support either. My assumption you are a racist? Chalk it up to intuition and see how you like it. I couldn’t tell Mr Grant’s race from the video, just as I couldn’t tell that he’d been cuffed or even restrained. As I noted in the other thread, whenever I hear about these police shootings, the victim invariably has a criminal history, as has now been confirmed in Mr Grant’s case. You’re the one linking race to criminal activity, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/40 "2009-01-08T22:47:31Z")
[quote=“Krav\_Manga, post:39, topic:480331”] I couldn’t tell Mr Grant’s race from the video, /QUOTE] You, sir, are a disingenuous douchebag. Go fuck yourself. Couldn’t tell his race from the video my ass. Back under the bridge with you! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331.md?page=3)