# It's not Krav Manga's United States. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331 "2009-01-08T03:46:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/101 "2009-01-10T04:45:34Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Why not just pick the lesser one, then amend the charges later if the investigation warrants? The authorities do this all the time with civilians; hell, plenty of times the charges are so unsustainable that they are dropped or summarily dismissed by the judge. > > They have the guy, on video, shooting an unarmed civilian in the back. I’m willing to wait for the investigation to find out exactly what happened, and to decide the final charges that will be taken to trial, but the shooter should be arrested. Except that once you arrest the guy, the clock starts ticking due to the speedy trial statutes. That means you’ve now just put a limited time frame on your investigation. You now start tailoring investigation and evidence analysis towards proving the charges you already filed, narrowing your investigation as opposed to using the evidence you have to determine the criminal charges your case can prove. If there were ever a case a DA does not want to screw up or breeze through like it’s any other case, it’s a high profile one. Just ask Marcia Clark and Chris Darden. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/102 "2009-01-10T04:47:23Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > As opposed to murder? Yes. I do not believe that a police officer, surrounded by other police officers and dozens of onlookers brazenly shot a man to death on a train platform. I’m skeptical, sue me. Since when is taking refuge in audacity considered a valid counter to physical evidence? We have _video_ of him shooting a man who is face-down on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/103 "2009-01-10T04:48:28Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Except that once you arrest the guy, the clock starts ticking due to the speedy trial statutes. That means you’ve now just put a limited time frame on your investigation. You now start tailoring investigation and evidence analysis towards proving the charges you already filed, narrowing your investigation as opposed to using the evidence you have to determine the criminal charges your case can prove. > > If there were ever a case a DA does not want to screw up or breeze through like it’s any other case, it’s a high profile one. Just ask Marcia Clark and Chris Darden. If Grant had been the one doing the shooting he’d be in jail right now. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/104 "2009-01-10T05:02:23Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > [Second Degree Murder](http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html) > > He drew his gun and fired at an unarmed and restrained man. Let’s he didn’t intend to fire his gun when he drew it. He still drew it which meant he was willing to use it. The subject was restrained an unarmed, he had no cause to draw his gun, let alone fire it. [QUOTE=California Penal Code] 187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, **with malice aforethought**. [/QUOTE] Congratulations. You now have to prove intent to kill. His defense is that he did not intend to pull the trigger, but the gun went off. If he didn’t intend to fire his gun, like you say, there is no malice. Being willing to use his service weapon (what cop isn’t?) and intending to use it are two different things. Case dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/105 "2009-01-10T05:06:50Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Since when is taking refuge in audacity considered a valid counter to physical evidence? We have _video_ of him shooting a man who is face-down on the floor. Yes, the evidence shows that, now if we only knew the reason WHY, we’d be in business. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/106 "2009-01-10T05:08:20Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Except that once you arrest the guy, the clock starts ticking due to the speedy trial statutes. Theyre estimating that the investigation will take a couple of weeks. Do you have any evidence that this would place an undue burden on the “speedy trial” issue, based on California law, or on the typical time between arrest and trial in the state of California? Surely you realize that the time from arrest to trial, especially in homicide cases, is considerably longer than a few weeks in the vast majority of cases? You’re doing nothing now except looking for excuses. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/107 "2009-01-10T05:15:29Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, every single story i can find, and every single Bay Area news broadcast that i’ve watched over the past few days, specifically states that the shooter has not talked to any law enforcement officials since the incident. > > Note that the news outlets don’t simply neglect to mention that Mehserle was interviewed; they explicitly state that he has NOT been interviewed. > > Now i’m as skeptical of the media as anyone, and i’m willing to believe that every single Bay Area media outlet has gotten it wrong, but if you have any evidence that Mehserle has, in fact, conducted the interviews that you assume, i’d love to hear about it. > > Surely, given the public outcry about this issue, if Mehserle had in fact been interviewed by the authorities, you’d think that the DA’s office, or BART, or someone, might actually inform the public of this fact. They don’t have to say what the substance of the interview was; simply confirm that it actually occurred. Yet, as far as i can tell, this hasn’t happened. I’ll tell you this much, if they haven’t done a custodial interview, hell, if the interview wasn’t done in the hours just after the shooting and the officer’s gun taken for evidence (correct rounds in the chamber, condition of the firearm etc). The entire law enforcement community in the the Bay area, nay, the entire state of California needs an immediate turnover in administrative personnel and an officer-involved shooting seminar, as well as a slap along side the head. This isn’t something that detectives have lightly glossed over. I would bet everything in my pocket (it’s friday night, I just got paid) that the first of the interviews have already taken place. It’s true he may not have talked to outside investigative agencies yet, but he’s talked to the BART IA division, he’s talked to city dicks, it’s so out of the realm of possibility that this wouldn’t have happened… About the news? Well, I suspect the news doesn’t know either. This is one of those incidents in which every official door will be shut and every news mic will hear only the reporters voice asking questions. The brass isn’t going to get specific, at least until they KNOW something. ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/108 "2009-01-10T05:16:37Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Congratulations. You now have to prove intent to kill. His defense is that he did not intend to pull the trigger, but the gun went off. If he didn’t intend to fire his gun, like you say, there is no malice. Being willing to use his service weapon (what cop isn’t?) and intending to use it are two different things. Case dismissed. Why’d he draw it? He had zero, zip, zilch, nada, nothing, bupkis, reason to draw it. It’d say that means he was intending to shoot to kill Grant. He’s trying to cover his ass by saying otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/109 "2009-01-10T05:18:29Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Surely you realize that the time from arrest to trial, especially in homicide cases, is considerably longer than a few weeks in the vast majority of cases? You’re doing nothing now except looking for excuses. Negative. **BEG’s** right on the money. You’re rushing at this thinking you know the outcome. The details have to come to you, you cannot go to the details. He’s guilty of something, given the correct time, we’ll all know what. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/110 "2009-01-10T05:21:32Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > Why’d he draw it? He had zero, zip, zilch, nada, nothing, bupkis, reason to draw it. It’d say that means he was intending to shoot to kill Grant. He’s trying to cover his ass by saying otherwise. Uh-uh. You have no way of knowing that. You’re making assumptions based on facts not in evidence. You don’t know what was going on outside of camera range, only what you THINK you saw on the footage. It may turn out that he had the zero reason, until the investigation is complete, we don’t know. There may have been movement behind one of his fellow officers that he saw that the other didn’t and in preparation to address that movement that he assessed as a threat, drew his weapon, accidentally discharging it. I don’t believe that’s what happened, but I don’t KNOW. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/111 "2009-01-10T05:22:57Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > If Grant had been the one doing the shooting he’d be in jail right now. Was San Francisco a maximum security prison on your last trip? I always thought that’s such a waste of a pretty eclectic town. Last time I checked supermarket employees weren’t issued service weapons nor are they legally permitted to use a gun or any other weapon against their customers? There’s a lot more to take into consideration when you’re dealing with a peace officer whom the law allows, under certain circumstances of course, to shoot people. Once again, because I don’t want you to misunderstand, Grant should not have been shot. There are many unanswered questions that need to be addressed. The current investigations are necessary. Now, how about we wait and see what the investigation reveals? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/112 "2009-01-10T06:32:30Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Negative. **BEG’s** right on the money. Negative. She’s not. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > You’re rushing at this thinking you know the outcome. The details have to come to you, you cannot go to the details. I’m not rushing at anything. I want the investigation to proceed with exactly the speed it requires to achieve a fair and honest outcome. But until that happens, a guy who is on video shooting an unarmed man in the back should have been placed under arrest. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > He’s guilty of something, given the correct time, we’ll all know what. Exactly. And he should have been arrested, charged with something, and released on bail. > [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Was San Francisco a maximum security prison on your last trip? The shooting didn’t happen in San Francisco. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/113 "2009-01-10T07:04:28Z")
Holy Jesus. I just watched the video. Before, I thought the cop was just incompetent (because you never discharge a weapon that close to other cops or civillians that might get hit). There was no reason, NONE, to draw that weapon. That was a murder. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/114 "2009-01-10T10:23:01Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Ok, you, I like. I take back any rude things I said about/to you. But only outside the Pit, buster. Why thank you 🙂 I have the right to have my rights trampled like anyone else, is all I’m sayin’ 😃 > [@](#): > > I could buy that if Grant’s three-cop take down wasn’t juxtaposed by the single cop restraint of the guy right next to him and the other guy just sitting there uncuffed and untouched. Something seems to have gone differently with the interaction between the officers and Grant long before Meserhle drew his weapon. True, but you don’t know that the response is proportionate to what prompted it. Anything short of total compliance will get you a forceful response. It doesn’t always have to be on the level Mesherle et. all (thanks:)) display here, it can be as mild as intimidating language and staring looks, but I’ve seen brutal violence happen for nothing more than verbal defiance (the protest against which led to my close encounter with a taser, and subsequent feelings against them. OK, so my rights can still be trampled, but now I have to work for it. It’s not \*fair \*!) > [@](#): > > I think if you review the video again, you’ll notice that Grant’s arm moves away from his body right after he’s shot. He could not have been cuffed when he was shot. I’ll get back to you on that Katie. I mean Brown Eyes. > [@](#): > > I’d be surprised if Meserhle’s attorneys would agree to duplicity such as that. So would I, but how could they make such a statement prior to investigation ? Based on what evidence ? > [@](#): > > I do think protective custody would be a reasonable consideration, but I highly doubt that’d be at County. County jails are not the safest, most peaceful of places, particularly not for a cop that just shot a civilian. He can be in protective custody in his own cozy PD if he likes - it’s the principle of the thing. > [@](#): > > Meserhle. How do you know he didn’t talk to his squadmates? Surely, he’s got friends at work; a partner? He didn’t go straight home from the train station, did he? Did he ride back to the station alone, in silence? He may very well have said something to someone, but nothing unofficial like that is likely to be reported in the press. Isn’t the second part of the Miranda right “… but anything you say can and will be held against you” ? I dunno, I guess you’re right - the Blue Wall of Silence frightens the shit out of me, that’s all. > [@](#): > > As far as refusing the interview, I would think it’d be in his best interest to do whatever his attorney tells him to do. If that means shut up and lay low, well, that’s what he’s got to do. It doesn’t matter in the least what we’re (the public) all thinking because we don’t have criminal charges hanging over our heads. > > As much as I’m sure anyone in his position would prefer to not have to do jail time, I also think that if he has any human compassion at all in his heart, he is feeling a great deal of remorse over his actions. The incident is more than likely to be replaying in his head like a scratched LP playing the same lyric over and over until you can’t stand the song anymore. Talk about a personal hell. Jail doesn’t even compare. He’s in a truly fucked up situation. I can feel for the guy to a point, but you could say the same about any busted criminal. I’m sure a guy who killed his beloved wife in a burst of emotion will feel the same crushing remorse - it doesn’t preclude him from having to face the consequences of his actions in speedy fashion, nor being held and questioned for them. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/115 "2009-01-10T15:53:46Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > I would bet everything in my pocket (it’s friday night, I just got paid) that the first of the interviews have already taken place. It’s true he may not have talked to outside investigative agencies yet, but he’s talked to the BART IA division, he’s talked to city dicks, it’s so out of the realm of possibility that this wouldn’t have happened… I’ll take that bet. > [@San Francisco Chronicle](#): > > All the officers who were present during the shooting, with the exception of Mehserle, have been interviewed, BART Police Chief Gary Gee said. > > “It’s not just BART. Nobody’s been able to talk to him,” BART spokesman Linton Johnson said of Mehserle. “We’ve been trying aggressively to get him to come in, but he hasn’t. It’s been very frustrating.” Christ on a cracker. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/116 "2009-01-10T16:18:34Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > I’ll take that bet. > > Christ on a cracker. Oh. My. God. They need to disband that joke of a “police” department and allow the city to absorb the duties under their division standards. “Frustrating!?!?” Says BART? THAT is the largest and stinkiest pile of male bovine excrement I’ve heard in years, and I live in Chicago. This is being bungled, and bigtime. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/117 "2009-01-10T16:26:52Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > They need to disband that joke of a “police” department and allow the city to absorb the duties under their division standards. Which city? Try getting a clue before posting something that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/118 "2009-01-10T16:27:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > [QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl] > I think if you review the video again, you’ll notice that Grant’s arm moves away from his body right after he’s shot. He could not have been cuffed when he was shot. I’ll get back to you on that Katie. I mean Brown Eyes. [/QUOTE] After another watching the vid again, you’re right, his arms do flail about after they roll him over, hadn’t noticed that at first. That makes it even more bizarre, why handcuff a man as you’re rushing him to the hospital ? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/119 "2009-01-10T16:32:51Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > I’ll take that bet. > > Christ on a cracker. Y’all seem to be forgetting that BART’s investigation is purely administrative and anything he says to BART is inadmissible in court. Since he’s already resigned, any interview, at this point, is merely academic. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/120 "2009-01-10T16:34:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That makes it even more bizarre, why handcuff a man as you’re rushing him to the hospital ? 😕 Protocol? Just a guess, but policies rarely take into consideration the unusual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331.md?page=7)