# It's not Krav Manga's United States. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331 "2009-01-08T03:46:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Roulette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8dc957/32.png) [@Roulette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roulette)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/121 "2009-01-10T16:40:27Z")
Today is the 10th. This occurred on the 1st. Over a week since several cops, a number of civilians, and several video recorders witnessed a cop shoot a prone suspect in the back leading to his death He has yet to even be brought in for questioning. He hasn’t taken 5th amendment protection, because they haven’t asked him a question, or read him his rights. From all appearances he’s not even taking the department’s calls, effectively. It’s reprehensible that the man hasn’t been taken into custody yet. If he wants to take the 5th, fine. Force him to do it. He doesn’t deserve, or receive special treatment because he put a badge on when he went to work. I would have been arrested on the spot. Interesting side note: there were protests Wed. night. Friday charges were filed against protesters that became violent. 2 days for the rest of us. But 10 and counting for this ex-cop. Gotta love the double standard. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/122 "2009-01-10T16:47:15Z")
> [@Roulette](#): > > Interesting side note: there were protests Wed. night. Friday charges were filed against protesters that became violent. 2 days for the rest of us. But 10 and counting for this ex-cop. Gotta love the double standard. Double standard? Would you be okay with Johannes being charged with the same crime as the protesters if they did it within 2 days? Hell, I was arrested for speeding within 15 minutes of comitting the offense, why do protestors get so much more time. Fuck, so many people want this done half-assed as long as it’s quick so they can get some satisfaction out of it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/123 "2009-01-10T16:48:05Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Y’all seem to be forgetting that BART’s investigation is purely administrative and anything he says to BART is inadmissible in court. Since he’s already resigned, any interview, at this point, is merely academic. He resigned three days ago, six days after the shooting. There was plenty of time to do something before that, or at least try. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/124 "2009-01-10T16:52:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > He resigned three days ago, six days after the shooting. There was plenty of time to do something before that, or at least try. They did. They can only compel testimony by threatening administrative action. Fat lotta good that did. He resigned. ---
**Author:** ![Roulette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8dc957/32.png) [@Roulette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roulette)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/125 "2009-01-10T16:59:58Z")
I don’t see the problem with arresting him. I mean, if anyone else has shot and killed a man in front of that many witnesses, they would have been arrested on the spot. File involuntary manslaughter charges. Throw his ass in jail. Time for investigation? Well, you’ve got video. Witnesses. Other cops on hand. Oh, and the unarmed dead body. You’re not going to get much more than that. He deserves to be dealt with the same as we deal with anyone else who kills someone. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/126 "2009-01-10T17:02:19Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Double standard? Would you be okay with Johannes being charged with the same crime as the protesters if they did it within 2 days? Hell, I was arrested for speeding within 15 minutes of comitting the offense, why do protestors get so much more time. Actually, the protesters were arrested on Wednesday night; formal charges were filed by the DA yesterday. [Link](http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_11420716) > [@kidchameleon](#): > > Fuck, so many people want this done half-assed as long as it’s quick so they can get some satisfaction out of it. Not a single person that i’ve seen wants this done half-assed. I don’t want them to change the speed or the deliberateness of the investigation at all. But they have easily enough to arrest the guy, and to charge him with something, while the investigation continues. Hell, **buttonjockey308** , a police officer who has been cautioning against excessive haste throughout this thread, apparently thinks it’s completely ridiculous, and a sign of incompetence, that no-one has even been able to talk to this guy yet, that he hasn’t been forced even to invoke his right to silence. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/127 "2009-01-10T17:03:46Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > They did. They can only compel testimony by threatening administrative action. Fat lotta good that did. He resigned. Right. and as soonm as he did that, and they had no way to compel testimony, he should have been brought in for questioning like any other criminal suspect. And when he refused to speak, as is his right, he should have been arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/128 "2009-01-10T17:07:36Z")
> [@Roulette](#): > > I don’t see the problem with arresting him. I mean, if anyone else has shot and killed a man in front of that many witnesses, they would have been arrested on the spot. File involuntary manslaughter charges. Throw his ass in jail. > > Time for investigation? Well, you’ve got video. Witnesses. Other cops on hand. Oh, and the unarmed dead body. You’re not going to get much more than that. He deserves to be dealt with the same as we deal with anyone else who kills someone. For Pete’s sake, it’s really more a benefit to do it right than do it fast. What’s wrong with waiting the two weeks the ACDA has said it’s going to be before charges come down? This is a very high profile case that should not be ramrodded through the courts. It never goes well when that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/129 "2009-01-10T17:08:10Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Face down on the ground, not struggling, with two police on top of him is fully restrained. The lack of handcuffs at that point in no way means that he was not already fully restrained, nor does his not having been shot to death at that point mean that he was not fully restrained. Ummm…no. It appeared to me on first viewing that he was cuffed. But I can speak from personal experience that someone being down on the ground with as many as _four_ officers on him is not restrained. And even with handcuffs secured, a prisoner is only partially restrained - there are still feet to consider. There are people who fight so hard and so violently that they have to be “hogtied” - feet cuffed together and then secured to the hands. And quite likely, a towel wrapped around their head so they can’t bite. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/130 "2009-01-10T17:09:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Hell, **buttonjockey308** , a police officer who has been cautioning against excessive haste throughout this thread, apparently thinks it’s completely ridiculous, and a sign of incompetence, that no-one has even been able to talk to this guy yet, that he hasn’t been forced even to invoke his right to silence. Don’t they usually work through attorneys once the suspect is lawyered up? ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/131 "2009-01-10T17:13:41Z")
buttonjockey, someone said you are a police officer. In your jurisdiction, how would this situation be handled? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/132 "2009-01-10T17:16:40Z")
> [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](#): > > buttonjockey, someone said you are a police officer. In your jurisdiction, how would this situation be handled? Chicago? Mehserle would have a commendation and a promotion by now. I kid, i kid! ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/133 "2009-01-10T17:28:46Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Not a single person that i’ve seen wants this done half-assed. I disagree. > [@mhendo](#): > > And he should have been arrested, charged with something, and released on bail. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Murder, Voluntary/Involuntary Manslaughter… take your pick. > > Criminal negligence is probably on the table, too. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I think the cop should have been immediately tossed in jail and charged with manslaughter or murder. Charge him with something! Who cares if it’s the right one or not? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/134 "2009-01-10T18:05:20Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Charge him with something! Who cares if it’s the right one or not? People get charged all the time on charges that are later amended before trial. He should be charged now with something that can be sustained based on the video evidence and eyewitness testimony, and if it turns out that the charge needs to be amended in light of the investigation, then do it. I just want him to be dealt with the same way anyone else in a similar situation would be. What he is getting, is special treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/135 "2009-01-11T02:39:53Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Charge him with something! Who cares if it’s the right one or not? Assuming they pick murder in the first, they can always drop it to a lesser charge later. I thought **buttonjockey** was a soldier, not a cop…? ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/136 "2009-01-12T05:02:28Z")
> [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](#): > > buttonjockey, someone said you are a police officer. In your jurisdiction, how would this situation be handled? First, my career path is: Beat cop/firefighter, then moved to arson investigation where I am now. Working on the timeline of this incident and assuming it’s correct **SBNT** an officer-involved shooting (as opposed to a weapon discharge where nothing was damaged) would follow like this. Incident occurs, command staff and IA arrive (sometimes they’re the same people) begin the investigation immediately, as in while the scene is being taped and before all of the evidence is gathered. The officer, for his own safety, gives up his weapon (again, to ensure he was using the right rounds, that the weapon was well maintained and functioning properly and to be recertified for use. Remember, this weapon is public property). He is asked a litany of questions (you’ll forgive the use of the masculine here) by command and/or IA is sent to critical-incident stress debreifing, then monitored by department personnel (should those resources permit). This is all done in the 24-72 hours after the shooting, because the truth is, the elected officials want this to go away, there’s no dallying. Presuming that the officer is union (which most are) he’s entitled to have a union attorney present during the aforementioned questioning. The initial findings of the investigation are presented to command staff and/or a board of inquiry (or whatever liason body) for the next step. Concurrently, county or state officials, as impartial 2nd parties begin their own investigation. This does take a little longer, but just quitting the force doesn’t mean you get to skip away from the incident fingers-in-your-ears shouting LA LA LA. Then, if there is any action to be taken, it is decided upon by the sharks, er, lawyers, and the command staff on behalf of the department. If he had stayed on, he would have likely (or at least should have been) in the station for the following 12 hours. In shooting incidents, people can have a sometimes seemingly schizophrenic reaction to killing another human being, debriefing is often key. All of this would be done within that 72 hour window. Charges might not be quick to come and frankly, you have more than just the officer, but the union who will represent the officer and has pockets as deep or deeper in some cases, than the people. Dragging him in on a bogus, hurried arrest allows union attorneys to tear the arrest apart and could set in motion a series of events that lead to a bad verdict or none at all. It’s not worth dragging him in right now. When they do, they’ll have everything they need to convict. Yeah, it’s likely a double standard, but it’s a necessary one, otherwise, you would, believe it or not, be a LOT less safe. If you start dragging cops in to jail everytime they shoot someone based on public pressure, you have a condition that puts hesitation in the mind of a cop, and that hesitation will get you as an officer or worse, an innocent person killed. Having looked at another version of the vid on youtube from the KTVU report, I can guess what happened; shit was getting out of control, Grant was starting to get shitty with the cops, the rookie (2 years on the job) goes to some effort to ready his weapon, I suspect he’s trying to force some situational awareness (read: press gun to subject, hollywood style) on Mr. Grant when the discharge happens. Always a bad move, never in a situation like that do you unholster your weapon, someone in his case, who was not a cop had ample opportunity to remove it from his grasp. The key thing to watch for is that unless you’re firing for your life, you don’t do so one-handed like he did. Straight, safe, clean shots are fired, whenever possible using two hands. He wasn’t firing for his life, he wasn’t blind firing to lay down cover, he wasn’t shot in his strong hand, he was acting like a schmuck and this poor kid paid for it. It’s not murder, but it’s negligence, in my opinion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/137 "2009-01-14T21:16:35Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > It’s not murder, but it’s negligence, in my opinion, of course. It would seem not everyone agrees: [Ex-cop charged with murder in Calif. shooting](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_re_us/train_station_shooting) ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/138 "2009-01-14T21:21:20Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > It would seem not everyone agrees: > > [Ex-cop charged with murder in Calif. shooting](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_re_us/train_station_shooting) Well, I suppose I’m not altogether suprised, but I’m interested to find out what they _convict_ him on. ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/139 "2009-01-14T21:54:55Z")
Manslaughter, maybe. Murder, no. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/140 "2009-01-14T22:24:06Z")
> [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](#): > > Manslaughter, maybe. Murder, no. Absent absolute evidence, I suspect he’ll deal down unless there’s too much pressure from the outside. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331.md?page=8)