# It's not Krav Manga's United States. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331 "2009-01-08T03:46:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/141 "2009-01-14T22:44:31Z")
I guess we can understand the frustration of the public and probably the prosecutors, that this defense may actually fly. “I drew my weapon, in a manner inconsistant with my _police training_. I pointed the weapon at a prone suspect, in a manner inconsistant with my _police training_. And then the weapon _just went off_!!!:eek::eek::eek:” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/142 "2009-01-14T23:12:24Z")
Maybe he was just cleaning it. That kind of shit happens all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/143 "2009-01-15T03:43:35Z")
I don’t think he’ll get murder in the second degree. First-degree murder is right out. The shot was not a killing one, according to the original story- it ricocheted off either the ground or the victim’s rib, and entered his lung. If he’d been trying to kill the guy, he could have shot him in the head quite easily. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/144 "2009-01-15T03:53:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think he’ll get murder in the second degree. First-degree murder is right out. The shot was not a killing one, according to the original story- it ricocheted off either the ground or the victim’s rib, and entered his lung. If he’d been trying to kill the guy, he could have shot him in the head quite easily. Yeah, maybe it ricocheted off his lung into his heart, or vice versa. Completely unforseeable. Ya know, if it ricocheted off his rib into his lung, there’s a pretty high probability it would made it to the lung anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/145 "2009-01-15T03:57:14Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yeah, maybe it ricocheted off his lung into his heart, or vice versa. Completely unforseeable. > > Ya know, if it ricocheted off his rib into his lung, there’s a pretty high probability it would made it to the lung anyway. Whether or not the death is forseeable is not really a necessary element of first-degree murder, as long as there’s no evidence that the death was _intended_. I suppose second-degree murder is not all that unlikely, but I strongly suspect he’ll cop a plea deal. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/146 "2009-01-15T05:39:47Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > First, my career path is: Beat cop/firefighter, then moved to arson investigation where I am now. > > Working on the timeline of this incident and assuming it’s correct **SBNT** an officer-involved shooting (as opposed to a weapon discharge where nothing was damaged) would follow like this. Incident occurs, command staff and IA arrive (sometimes they’re the same people) begin the investigation immediately, as in while the scene is being taped and before all of the evidence is gathered. The officer, for his own safety, gives up his weapon (again, to ensure he was using the right rounds, that the weapon was well maintained and functioning properly and to be recertified for use. Remember, this weapon is public property). He is asked a litany of questions (you’ll forgive the use of the masculine here) by command and/or IA is sent to critical-incident stress debreifing, then monitored by department personnel (should those resources permit). This is all done in the 24-72 hours after the shooting, because the truth is, the elected officials want this to go away, there’s no dallying. Presuming that the officer is union (which most are) he’s entitled to have a union attorney present during the aforementioned questioning. The initial findings of the investigation are presented to command staff and/or a board of inquiry (or whatever liason body) for the next step. Concurrently, county or state officials, as impartial 2nd parties begin their own investigation. This does take a little longer, but just quitting the force doesn’t mean you get to skip away from the incident fingers-in-your-ears shouting LA LA LA. > > Then, if there is any action to be taken, it is decided upon by the sharks, er, lawyers, and the command staff on behalf of the department. If he had stayed on, he would have likely (or at least should have been) in the station for the following 12 hours. In shooting incidents, people can have a sometimes seemingly schizophrenic reaction to killing another human being, debriefing is often key. All of this would be done within that 72 hour window. Charges might not be quick to come and frankly, you have more than just the officer, but the union who will represent the officer and has pockets as deep or deeper in some cases, than the people. Dragging him in on a bogus, hurried arrest allows union attorneys to tear the arrest apart and could set in motion a series of events that lead to a bad verdict or none at all. It’s not worth dragging him in right now. When they do, they’ll have everything they need to convict. Yeah, it’s likely a double standard, but it’s a necessary one, otherwise, you would, believe it or not, be a LOT less safe. If you start dragging cops in to jail everytime they shoot someone based on public pressure, you have a condition that puts hesitation in the mind of a cop, and that hesitation will get you as an officer or worse, an innocent person killed. > > Having looked at another version of the vid on youtube from the KTVU report, I can guess what happened; shit was getting out of control, Grant was starting to get shitty with the cops, the rookie (2 years on the job) goes to some effort to ready his weapon, I suspect he’s trying to force some situational awareness (read: press gun to subject, hollywood style) on Mr. Grant when the discharge happens. Always a bad move, never in a situation like that do you unholster your weapon, someone in his case, who was not a cop had ample opportunity to remove it from his grasp. The key thing to watch for is that unless you’re firing for your life, you don’t do so one-handed like he did. Straight, safe, clean shots are fired, whenever possible using two hands. He wasn’t firing for his life, he wasn’t blind firing to lay down cover, he wasn’t shot in his strong hand, he was acting like a schmuck and this poor kid paid for it. It’s not murder, but it’s negligence, in my opinion, of course. Thanks for your reply-ignorance fought; mine at least. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/147 "2009-01-15T12:25:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Whether or not the death is forseeable is not really a necessary element of first-degree murder, as long as there’s no evidence that the death was _intended_. I suppose second-degree murder is not all that unlikely, but I strongly suspect he’ll cop a plea deal. [According to the prosecutor](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_re_us/train_station_shooting_21), the _shooting_ was intentional. > [@](#): > > At this point, what I feel the evidence indicates, is an unlawful killing done by an intentional act and from the evidence we have there’s nothing that would mitigate that to something lower than a murder. Given he was shot in the back, it would be a very fine line to distinguish whether the intentional shooting included an intent to _kill_. It’s hard to se that it wouln’t, but that’s why they pay the big bucks to prosecutors. . ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/148 "2009-01-15T20:53:59Z")
Again, I think the prosecutor is acting on public pressure because he knows how short a memory the public has for these things. I doubt he’ll be convicted of murder and I believe the prosecutor knows this. Bringing him up on murder charges allows the prosecutor to do two things; it allows him to rain fire down on the cop to gain favor of the public and it allows him to shrug his shoulders and say “Hey, I tried” when the jury doesn’t convict him of murder, presuming that there isn’t a lesser included charge, which I don’t believe there can be, but IANAL. The damnable shame is that innocent residents and business owners were and will be forced to endure the “outrage” about this incident via riots and protests. The story linked in **Boyo Jim’s** post talks about the protests and riots after it happened. I get it, to the extent it’s possible, I get it, but acting like a shitheel does nothing but prevent your cause from being taken seriously. If you stood together as a community and silently filled the public square in protest holding signs decrying police violence against the citizenry, that’s a powerful message. When you break my windows or burn my car because a cop shot some guy you don’t even KNOW, that only serves to deepen the divide. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/149 "2009-01-15T21:20:05Z")
Police know they are more likely to get the truth by quickly questioning the shooter right after the incident. He has had time to analyze what happened and he can fit his answers into a less damning framework now. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/150 "2009-01-31T06:08:19Z")
Thought i’d keep this thread up to date with latest developments. Bail was set at $3 million today for Mehserle and, as i suggested in my first post to this thread, his lawyer is arguing that he intended to pull his Taser, but mistakenly pulled his gun instead. [Link](http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_11592317?source=most_emailed) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/151 "2009-01-31T16:51:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Thought i’d keep this thread up to date with latest developments. > > Bail was set at $3 million today for Mehserle and, as i suggested in my first post to this thread, his lawyer is arguing that he intended to pull his Taser, but mistakenly pulled his gun instead. > > [Link](http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_11592317?source=most_emailed) Oh dear. The California Highway Patrol uses the [Taser X26](http://www.pimall.com/nais/taserx26.html). I don’t know what local departments use, but I imagine it’s something similar, and I cannot imagine any way that somebody familiar with that device and a pistol would confuse the two. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/152 "2009-01-31T17:27:19Z")
If you fire a taser at a suspect that is being restrained by others, would they feel the effects? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/153 "2009-01-31T22:11:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you fire a taser at a suspect that is being restrained by others, would they feel the effects? Speaking from personal experience, yes. That said, if you don’t know it’s coming, it’s probably less unpleasant if you’re lying on the ground, since you don’t have to worry about falling down. For direct evidence, see “don’t tase me, bro!” guy, or that kid who was repeatedly tased while restrained in the USC library. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/154 "2009-02-01T00:25:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The California Highway Patrol uses the [Taser X26](http://www.pimall.com/nais/taserx26.html). I don’t know what local departments use, but I imagine it’s something similar, and I cannot imagine any way that somebody familiar with that device and a pistol would confuse the two. More damning to my mind is the fact that these officers, when issued tasers, are required to carry them on the side opposite their gun hand, so drawing the taser involves a reach across the body. It’s not like it’s hanging right next to the service weapon. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331/155 "2009-02-01T07:26:29Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > More damning to my mind is the fact that these officers, when issued tasers, are required to carry them on the side opposite their gun hand, so drawing the taser involves a reach across the body. It’s not like it’s hanging right next to the service weapon. Well, what they’re required to do and what they actually do can be two different things based on a lot of factors (how it feels while you’re in your car, for one) still, the smart cops wear their tasers either lower on the leg(thigh) on their strong hand or on their vest in a crossdraw style. I’d like to be able to believe this young man, but I don’t. In the heat of the moment and alone I might have bought it, but there was no heat, no moment and he wasn’t alone. This was just, I think, a killing that I’ll stop short of calling a cold blooded murder, but definately was manslaughter. The hole in his argument, if he truly had presence of mind, is that he would have called for an ambulance right away, treated the kid right away and made an apology to the family right away. If he’d done that, right away, he’d probably still be employed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-krav-mangas-united-states/480331.md?page=7)