# It's not mayhem, says judge, but should it even be a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494 "2009-10-03T22:12:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/21 "2009-10-04T05:22:12Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But they aren’t permanent. The process to remove them (if the tattoo is in an area where it can be removed) is sufficiently involved and gross that it’s not really worth distinguishing. [YouTube – The Procedure](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRgLUoJdcOU) [YouTube – After the Procedure](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_fyb1PSrA) (Note that this is something you have to go through several times over the course of a month) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/22 "2009-10-04T05:40:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Do you apply this same judgement to pierced ears or circumcision (which is done without the child’s wish or desire)? No, I don’t, because I’ve never seen somebody be so shitfaced that they go get their ears pierced. Or circumsised. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/23 "2009-10-04T05:52:50Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But if mutilating a male child’s genitals (before he can even speak, let alone express a desire to do so) isn’t a crime, why should allowing him to get a tattoo be a crime? :rolleyes: Why didn’t you use the cutting of the umbilical cord or him getting assaulted with a slap on his bottom? You are aware that there is a medical reason for circumcision, right? Unbelievable. And anyone one who gives a seven-year-old a tatoo is not fit to be a parent and deserves to be in jail for a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/24 "2009-10-04T05:56:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > :rolleyes: Why didn’t you use the cutting of the umbilical cord or him getting assaulted with a slap on his bottom? You are aware that there is a medical reason for circumcision, right? > > Unbelievable. > > And anyone one who gives a seven-year-old a tatoo is not fit to be a parent and deserves to be in jail for a few years. \ Wrong. > [@](#): > > In 1975, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) stated in no uncertain terms that “there is no absolute medical indication for routine circumcision of the newborn.” In 1983, the AAP and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) restated this position. In 1999 and again in 2005, the AAP again restated this position of equivocation. [cite](http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/25 "2009-10-04T06:14:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > \ > > Wrong. > > [cite](http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm) I wish people would pay attention to what is written and what the words and sentences mean. I said there was a medical rationale, not that there was absolute medical necessity. Perhaps now you can point to the medical rationale for giving a seven-year-old a tattoo. And when you can’t perhaps you’ll see that my critique of your point was correct. Hope springs eternal. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/26 "2009-10-04T06:47:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I wish people would pay attention to what is written and what the words and sentences mean. I said there was a medical rationale, not that there was absolute medical necessity. > > Perhaps now you can point to the medical rationale for giving a seven-year-old a tattoo. And when you can’t perhaps you’ll see that my critique of your point was correct. > > Hope springs eternal. :rolleyes: Wrong. > [@](#): > > There is no compelling medical rationale for the procedure in healthy boys [cite](There is no compelling medical rationale for the procedure in healthy boys): US National Library of Medicine & NIH > [@](#): > > Neonatal circumcision is not good health policy, and support for it as a medical procedure cannot be justified financially or medically. [cite](http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm): Van Howe, R., “A Cost-Utility Analysis of Neonatal Circumcision,” Medical Decision Making 24 (2004):584-601. When come back, bring facts. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/27 "2009-10-05T03:51:44Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I’ve never heard of someone losing control of their tattoo and killing people. And unlike a pet, a tattoo does not require years of maintenance and attention. > > Please, if you’re going to use comparisons to support your argument, make them relevant. My point is, just because “the child wanted it” isn’t a good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/28 "2009-10-05T14:35:45Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Larry Borgia, I can tell from reading your posts over the years that you are an intelligent person: I KNOW that the man in question did not have his child tattooed with hate speech, profanity or dubious artistic expressions. > > The question I asked is, what would you think if he (or anyone else) DID tattoo their children with offensive imagery? There’s a style of argument which I see a lot where people build up hypothetical situations which are much worse than whatever really happened and then argue as though the hypothetical was true, instead of what actually hppened. “Here’s a video of someone poking a kitten. Isn’t this horrible?” “Eh, he’s just tapping the kitten. The kitten doesn’t seem to really notice.” “Well, what if he was stabbing the kitten? Would you support that you cruel bastard!?” I think letting a little kid get a tatoo is bad parenting, but there’s a world of difference between say, a tattoo of a flower on the hip and “I am a retard baby” tatooed on the forehead. You have to deal with the facts of whatever case are brought before you. I missed that this was a gang sign when I first read the OP, but it still seems like bad parenting, not criminal activity, and still not the equivalent of openly tatooing hate speech on the child. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/29 "2009-10-05T16:05:04Z")
I’m against tattooing children solely because they haven’t yet developed the judgment to pick one out yet. Had I been allowed to get a tattoo when I was seven, I’d still be sporting my kick-ass Big Bird tattoo. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/30 "2009-10-05T16:59:33Z")
Yes it should be a crime. It should also be a crime to dye your child’s hair green, give him a fauxhawk, dress him in an Iron Maiden shirt, or otherwise impose your pathetic lifestyle on a defenseless kid. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/31 "2009-10-05T17:56:19Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > When come back, bring facts. Let me help you out: circumcision is allowed because people have been doing it for religious reasons for a long time. That’s it. It’s not rational, but do lawmakers give a shit? And female circumcision is unthinkably savage because it’s some _other_ peoples’ insane practice. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/32 "2009-10-05T18:05:26Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Sorry to go all JDT, but as long as routine infant circumcision is legal, I can’t see the moral or rational grounds for disallowing a small tattoo. It would be one thing if a family disfigured a child in a way that would make them socially excluded, I suppose, and perhaps the gang issues in this case do point more toward some sort of mental abuse like that, but the mere fact of a tattoo? I suppose we should also go after all the families whose baby girls have pierced ears. My initial reaction was that this was criminal conduct, but as soon as I read your post I changed my mind. However, _mayhem_ is the stupidest name for a criminal activity ever. Why don’t they add a count of aggravated hullaballoo? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/33 "2009-10-05T18:45:01Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Sorry to go all JDT, but as long as routine infant circumcision is legal, I can’t see the moral or rational grounds for disallowing a small tattoo. It would be one thing if a family disfigured a child in a way that would make them socially excluded, I suppose, and perhaps the gang issues in this case do point more toward some sort of mental abuse like that, but the mere fact of a tattoo? I suppose we should also go after all the families whose baby girls have pierced ears. Correct. Both should be illegal. Circumcision is child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/34 "2009-10-05T22:07:37Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > There’s a style of argument which I see a lot where people build up hypothetical situations which are much worse than whatever really happened and then argue as though the hypothetical was true, instead of what actually hppened. > > “Here’s a video of someone poking a kitten. Isn’t this horrible?” > “Eh, he’s just tapping the kitten. The kitten doesn’t seem to really notice.” > “Well, what if he was stabbing the kitten? Would you support that you cruel bastard!?” > > I think letting a little kid get a tatoo is bad parenting, but there’s a world of difference between say, a tattoo of a flower on the hip and “I am a retard baby” tatooed on the forehead. You have to deal with the facts of whatever case are brought before you. > > I missed that this was a gang sign when I first read the OP, but it still seems like bad parenting, not criminal activity, and still not the equivalent of openly tatooing hate speech on the child. Normally I’d agree that the “you can’t draw the line precisely, therefore no line should be drawn” argument is fallacious, but I think the question of where the line should be drawn is interesting in this instance. At first glance, I do not really want judges to have to decide that good tasteful tattoos are legal while tasteless tattoos are illegal. From that I’d conclude that something like obscenity laws would be the best to preserve the legality of bad artwork and preventing hate crime tattoos. It does still leave open the door for an abusive parent to aggressively tattoo a kid as a punishment or form of abuse, but I am unsure how that would be proven unless it is very excessive. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/35 "2009-10-10T15:04:11Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > And female circumcision is unthinkably savage because it’s some _other_ peoples’ insane practice. Calling it “female circumcision” is misleading. What’s usually done is analogous to [cutting your son’s dick off.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/464/whats-the-story-with-female-circumcision) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/36 "2009-10-13T19:09:53Z")
Circumcision does have medical uses, tattoos have no purpose except show, so that analogy isn’t apt Circumcised men have lower HIV infection rates, they transmit less STD and such. Of course the primary reason behind this is circumsized penises are easier to keep clean. So it’s not that you couldn’t achieve this without circumcision. Of course circumcision goes back centuries as a religious ritual. Courts allow illegal things for religious rituals. Note certain Native American tribes are allowed to use plants that cause hallucinations and such in their native rituals, while banning the use of these plants for recreation. So the analogy isn’t apt. A tattoo isn’t part of a religious ritual, it’s simply a recreation or decoration. And no gang and club rituals aren’t covered because the 1st Amendment protects RELIGION not gang or social clubs. Furthermore there are lots and lots of temporary solutions. For instance, there are temporary tattoos. There are new methods of tattooing that use special inks that break up under lasers. These tattoos are permenent yet are more easily removed than the traditional tattoo. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494/37 "2009-10-13T19:18:06Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Yes it should be a crime. It should also be a crime to dye your child’s hair green, give him a fauxhawk, dress him in an Iron Maiden shirt, or otherwise impose your pathetic lifestyle on a defenseless kid. These people did something similar and they never got charged for it [![](https://trixiesbeautybar.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/mullet-1958.jpg) ](https://trixiesbeautybar.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/mullet-1958.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-mayhem-says-judge-but-should-it-even-be-a-crime/512494.md?page=1)