# It's not the money, it's the principle! No, it's the money **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 10, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866 "2014-12-10T18:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/1 "2014-12-10T18:36:11Z")
Harvard Business School Professor Ben Edelman, of its Negotiation, Organizations & Markets unit, [shows how negotiations work](http://www.boston.com/food-dining/restaurants/2014/12/09/harvard-business-school-professor-goes-war-over-worth-chinese-food/KfMaEhab6uUY1COCnTbrXP/story.html)when his once-favorite Chinese takeout joint overcharges. The e-mail chain is priceless. But he got his $4 refunded, with treble damages at that, so it’s all good, right? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/2 "2014-12-10T18:46:49Z")
My conclusion: Ben Edelman is a dick-head who lives to cause other people discomfort and pain. I hope that at some point in the future he makes an inadvertent mistake, and someone just like him sues his ass into oblivion, just for shits and giggles. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/3 "2014-12-10T18:52:07Z")
Hmm. I didn’t see in the story where he got his $4 refunded with triple damages. Last I saw, Edelman had kicked the ask up to 50% off for bringing this menu/price discrepancy to the restaurant’s attention. I can see both sides - guess I’m a bit of an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/4 "2014-12-10T18:55:26Z")
That’s in [today’s update](http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2014/12/10/who-ben-edelman-sheriff-the-chinese-food-internet/kaHyTBoMJjGkITQDV5uxaN/story.html?p1=Topofpage:Carousel_lead_headline). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/5 "2014-12-10T19:01:54Z")
I could have sworn that when I read that story yesterday, it included more detail about the exchange between Edelman and Duan. Those details seem to have been removed, but I did find the gist [posted elsewhere:](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/10/ben-edelman-harvard-business-professor-goes-berser/) > [@](#): > > Ben Edelman ordered what he thought was $53.35 worth of food from Sichuan Garden’s Brookline Village site, but discovered — when presented with the bill — that the amount was actually $4 more, [Boston.com](http://Boston.com) reported. So he sent off a scathing email, detailing the notes he took about his order, and ultimately, threatening and citing the Massachusetts Consumer Protection Statute. > > In the first email to Ran Duan, the manager of The Baldwin Bar inside the Chinese restaurant founded by his parents, Mr. Edelman wrote: “Hi, I ordered takeout from you this evening. Below are my notes on what I ordered, then the price quoted on your web site … then the price on the receipt. Could you clarify the differences? It seems like an increase of $1 on each and every item.” > > Mr. Edelman then lists every item, followed by the expected versus charged amount. > > Mr. Duan replied with an apology and an explanation that the website prices were out-of-date. He also offered to email an updated price list. > > Mr. Edelman’s reply, [Boston.com](http://Boston.com) reported: “Thanks for the reply and for explaining what went wrong. We enjoyed the food, but we don’t need to trouble you for an updated menu. Under Massachusetts law it turns out to be a serious violation to advertise one price and charge a different price. I urge you to cease this practice immediately. If you don’t know how to update your web site, you could remove the web site altogether until you are able to correct the error.” > > He then suggested a proper address of his grievance: “In the interim, I suggest that Sichuan Garden refund me three times the amount of the overcharge. The tripling reflects the approach provided under the Massachusetts consumer protection statute, MGL 93a, wherein consumers broadly receive triple damages for certain intentional violations.” > > Mr. Edelman then suggested the restaurant could refund the $12 to his credit card or mail a check to his home — their choice, [Boston.com](http://Boston.com) reported. > > Mr. Duan then emailed a counteroffer: to pay Mr. Edelman $3. > > “We are a mom and pop restaurant and we pride ourselves on hard work and authentic Sichuan cuisine,” he wrote. “I will honor the website price and honor you the $3.00. Let me know if that works for you.” > > Apparently it did not, because Mr. Edelman reminded that the restaurant overcharged $4, not $3. > > He also wrote: “It strikes me that merely providing a refund to a single customer would be an exceptionally light sanction for the violation that has occurred. To wit, your restaurant overcharged all customers who viewed the web site and placed a telephone order — the standard and typical way to order takeout. You did so knowingly, knowing that your web site was out of date and that consumers would see it and rely on it. You allowed the problem to continue, in your own fords, ‘for quite some time.’ “ > > The email continues for many more lines, alerting that “I have already referred this matter to applicable authorities” and that “I will accept whatever refund you elect to provide, be it $4 or $12, but I accept that refund without prejudice to my rights as provided by law,” [Boston.com](http://Boston.com) reported. I don’t know about you, but I’d be pissed off too if I ordered some food and was quietly charged more than the advertised prices. I don’t know what an “appropriate” restitution would be, but then, I’m not a specialist in the law about those sorts of matters. But I wouldn’t be satisfied with an offer to refund _part_ of the difference between the advertised price and what I was actually charged. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/6 "2014-12-10T19:08:41Z")
He’s being a dick. The poor saps are trying to make it running a small business and so they were slow to update their web page. I’m just not seeing why one should be immune from the honest mistakes of others, let alone profit from it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/7 "2014-12-10T19:22:44Z")
If I noticed the difference, which I probably wouldn’t, I would have just assumed the web site was out of date and not worried about it. One dollar increase on each item? Big whoop. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/8 "2014-12-10T19:25:52Z")
I really enjoyed how Duan offered to refund him $3.00. He’s either very naive and playing the English-is-my-second-language card, or he’s a brilliant man toying with a troll. I really hope it’s the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/9 "2014-12-10T19:33:51Z")
[Mr. Chung](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_v._Chung)should be glad Edelman didn’t drop any food on himself; his pants may have needed cleaning! ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/10 "2014-12-10T19:37:20Z")
If I were the business owner, after making the counter offer of $3 (which should have been $4), I would have have fixed the price on my website and ignored all further emails from him. We get people like him from time to time. People that just get worked up into a god damn tizzy and nothing is going to calm them down. IME, I found the best recourse is just to ignore them. Offer to make things right, but ignore silly requests. If he wants $12 he can sue the business owner. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/11 "2014-12-10T19:37:25Z")
I ordered food in a restaurant once, was presented with a bill that exceeded the cost of what I had ordered, and when I pointed that out, I was presented with a _different_ menu with different prices. Um, no. Then I got to have an argument with the waiter about the fact that you can’t just change the prices after the fact. I’m on the lawyer’s side (although I agree he’s kind of being a dick). Advertising one price and charging another is odious and should be harshly penalized. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/12 "2014-12-10T19:37:44Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I don’t know about you, but I’d be pissed off too if I ordered some food and was quietly charged more than the advertised prices. I don’t know what an “appropriate” restitution would be, but then, I’m not a specialist in the law about those sorts of matters. But I wouldn’t be satisfied with an offer to refund _part_ of the difference between the advertised price and what I was actually charged. Although Edelman comes across as an insufferable jerk, I have to say I agree with the gist. He WAS overcharged. I would be upset, just as \*\*Thudlow Boink \*\*would have been. Of course, I would have just went down and discussed it in person, rather than making a fool of myself on the internet. But, then, I’m not a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/13 "2014-12-10T19:47:43Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I’m on the lawyer’s side (although I agree he’s kind of being a dick). Advertising one price and charging another is odious and should be harshly penalized. Yeah, one editorial is titled “[In Defense of Ben Edelman, the Jerk Who Was Right](http://freebeacon.com/blog/in-defense-of-ben-edelman-the-jerk-who-was-right/).” [Here I found the actual email exchange](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/12/09/harvard_professor_overcharged_for_takeout_read_his_absolutely_ridiculous.html) between Edelman and Duan (under the title “Watch This Harvard Prof Totally _Own_ a Small Chinese Restaurant That Overcharged Him $4 for Takeout.”) And from what I read there, I believe that, to Edelman, it really was the principle. [QUOTE=Ben Edelman] “It strikes me that merely providing a refund to a single customer would be an exceptionally light sanction for the violation that has occurred. To wit, your restaurant overcharged all customers who viewed the website and placed a telephone order — the standard and typical way to roder takeout. You did so knowingly, knowing that your website was out of date and that customers would see it and rely on it. You allowed the problem to continue, in your own words, “for quite some time.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/14 "2014-12-10T19:47:56Z")
That place does have pretty good food, and I can’t fault Edelman’s order choices, or his frustration at how some Boston restaurants’ advertised online pricing is only loosely related to what they actually charge. But the restaurant offered to refund him immediately. It’s fine if he wants to insist that they update their menu online, but asking for triple damages moves him into jerk territory. Especially when [he may be on shaky legal ground](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/12/10/harvard_professor_rages_at_chinese_restaurant_he_may_have_even_gotten_the.html)to demand that. Now he has to go all the way to Somerville for good 水煮鱼. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/15 "2014-12-10T19:48:41Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I really enjoyed how Duan offered to refund him $3.00. He’s either very naive and playing the English-is-my-second-language card, or he’s a brilliant man toying with a troll. I really hope it’s the latter. Or he’s a brilliant man playing the English-is-my-second-language card, toying with a troll. I work with someone who does this. It’s hilarious to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/16 "2014-12-10T19:48:44Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > If I noticed the difference, which I probably wouldn’t, I would have just assumed the web site was out of date and not worried about it. One dollar increase on each item? Big whoop. Most customers probably responded the same way, which is why it continued for so long. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/17 "2014-12-10T19:56:00Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I ordered food in a restaurant once, was presented with a bill that exceeded the cost of what I had ordered, and when I pointed that out, I was presented with a _different_ menu with different prices. Um, no. > > Then I got to have an argument with the waiter about the fact that you can’t just change the prices after the fact. > > I’m on the lawyer’s side (although I agree he’s kind of being a dick). Advertising one price and charging another is odious and should be harshly penalized. When you say it like that, it makes sense. I’ve often told people to knock it often when they’re getting recreationally outraged and annoyed for someone else about something that doesn’t actually bother them. But sometimes the unwashed masses do need an advocate, a watchdog, someone to make sure they’re not getting ripped off because they can’t be paying attention all the time. We learn to watch our credit and lock our doors and not tell people our passwords but who makes sure the menu price is the same price on the bill. In my city, the department of weights and measures checks to make sure the scanner at the grocery store is ringing things up correctly, but I don’t think anyone checks up on this kind of stuff and maybe they should check websites and menus in their jurisdiction from time to time. Having said that, it wasn’t about the money, if the restaurant gave him the $12 and fixed their menu would that have been the end of it or would we have still heard about it? What could he have done and not been a jerk about it? I suppose what he should have done was just alerted them to the error asked them to fix the menu, checked back on it a few days later and when they didn’t, then report them to whoever they get reported to. I guess the other question is, who alerted the media? If the teacher is the one who made this public that also makes him a bigger jerkface, it proves that he’s not actually trying to get them to fix their menu just trying to make an example out of them. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/18 "2014-12-10T19:59:20Z")
I do think he came off badly but I get his point. It’s not about his $4, it’s about how many other dollars the restaurant has been paid by people that haven’t had the energy to make a big fuss about it. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > He’s being a dick. The poor saps are trying to make it running a small business and so they were slow to update their web page. I’m just not seeing why one should be immune from the honest mistakes of others, let alone profit from it. An honest mistake? Duan himself said that the webpage had been out of date for quite some time. So they clearly knew about it and did nothing to fix it. Or thought that the disclaimer covered them for the discrepancies. If it was a new issue that had just popped up I’d buy the “honest mistake” excuse but not based on the facts in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/19 "2014-12-10T20:00:52Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > [Here I found the actual email exchange](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/12/09/harvard_professor_overcharged_for_takeout_read_his_absolutely_ridiculous.html) between Edelman and Duan (under the title “Watch This Harvard Prof Totally _Own_ a Small Chinese Restaurant That Overcharged Him $4 for Takeout.”) Speaking of titles/headlines, it’s interesting to see all the different spins put on the whole thing by the different websites reporting it: \*\*Harvard prof has epic e-mail feud with Chinese restaurant over $4 A Chinese restaurant charged Ben Edelman $4 too much. Bad move Harvard Business Professor Goes to War with Family-Run Chinese Restaurant for Overcharging Him $4 (because he had nothing better to do than berate a small business owner with threatening emails). Harvard Professor Wets His Dypie Over A $4 Overcharge On Chinese Food Harvard Business School Professor Fails to Bully Chinese Restaurant Into Giving Him $12 Miserly Harvard Professor Harasses Chinese Restaurant Over $4 Lawyer With 3 Harvard Degrees Loses His Mind Over $4 Chinese Food Overcharge Unbearable Harvard Guy Contacts Authorities Over $4 Chinese Food Mistake Harvard Professor Defends Acting Like a Dickweed to Restaurant over $4 Chinese restaurant: Ben Edelman, Harvard swellhead, goes on Chinese food tirade\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/20 "2014-12-10T20:15:07Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I really enjoyed how Duan offered to refund him $3.00. He’s either very naive and playing the English-is-my-second-language card, or he’s a brilliant man toying with a troll. I really hope it’s the latter. The articles say that Duan has been in the US since he was three years old, so he’s certainly fully fluent in English. I assume the Harvard professor has to find a new restaurant now. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866.md?page=2)