# It's not the money, it's the principle! No, it's the money **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 10, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866 "2014-12-10T18:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/21 "2014-12-10T20:16:45Z")
Here’s the question: How was Edelman overcharged? Surely he added up the totals before putting in the order. Did he receive a total over the phone when he placed the order? If not, he clearly knew he was being overcharged at the point of sale. So why did he not ask the question then? I agree with Edelman on one thing and one thing only: he was overcharged by $4.00 and deserves a refund for that amount. Does he deserve $12? No. MGL 93a, Section 11 - which he cites - allows for an assertion of up to 3x damages. That’s through a court of law. It does NOT give you the right to demand three times the amount of the discrepancy as a way to broker a deal. That’s not to say it is illegal to do so, but it is saying that Mr. Edelman knew this law and knew the remedies available to him and purposely misinterpreted it in order to secure $8 extra dollars. Further, there’s nothing stated in the law, nor any evidence Mr. Edelman presents indicating that the restaurant offering 50% off his meal would “please” the authorities or do anything to lessen any potential sanctions levied against the restaurant. In other words, he’s talking out his ass in order to try to sweeten the pot by around $25. Finally, I take issue with Mr. Edelman claiming he is bound by professional conduct to stop communicating with restaurant and only speak with Mr. Duan’s legal counsel…and then continuing the communicate with Mr. Duan! But if Mr. Edelman is bound by professional ethics, I wonder what the MA bar association would have to say after reviewing his conduct in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/22 "2014-12-10T20:19:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That’s in [today’s update](http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2014/12/10/who-ben-edelman-sheriff-the-chinese-food-internet/kaHyTBoMJjGkITQDV5uxaN/story.html?p1=Topofpage:Carousel_lead_headline). Also, that article quotes him as saying, “If you look at my other work, e.g. [Aviation Consumer Protection - Research and Complaints](http://www.benedelman.org/airfare-advertising/), you’ll see I’ve been pretty diligent in holding large companies accountable for their false statements of price and other attempts to overcharge passengers. Should all small businesses get a free pass? Some people seem to think so, I wonder if that really makes sense.” Personally, I don’t demand the same level of scrutiny by small restaurant owners that I do of giant corporations like Microsoft (except when it comes to food safety and preparation). ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/23 "2014-12-10T20:24:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’m just not seeing why one should be immune from the honest mistakes of others Would it be right for others to pay for your mistakes? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/24 "2014-12-10T20:30:56Z")
Surely the man has heard the concept of winning the battle but losing the war. Because even if he is correct that he’s entitled to treble damages, he comes off as the HBS bully against the immigrant small business owner. Don’t they have classes in public relations in that business school? ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/25 "2014-12-10T20:31:22Z")
Mr. Edelman is like the dude who sued for seven figure when a dry cleaner lost his pants. Mr. Edelman is clearly manufacturing stuff to avoid looking at the fact that he’s a douche. He was free to demand the trebel damages that a court might award him as a civil penalty, but the business owner was free to decline. (I don’t suppose it occurred to Edelman that the $3 v. $4 refund offer was simply a … typographical error.) There are times when principle is righteously pursued. This isn’t principle; this is Edelman endeavoring to validate his assholery. Of course, if he’s worried about the little guy, he ought to have spent all the time he’s spent on this doing pro bono work for something a little more important to the common good. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/26 "2014-12-10T20:41:05Z")
Edelman is an insufferable douche. That’s my take. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/27 "2014-12-10T21:12:03Z")
Maybe he’s just a turd sandwich. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UthMHjoNyjA) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/28 "2014-12-10T21:17:18Z")
I know there’s a local restaurant that everyone loves. But my wife and I went there one time, and -The waiter was such an insufferably rude hipster that I never want to go back. -The local beer they sold, which is on draft everywhere else in town, was in a bottle, even though it was the same price as draft elsewhere (yeah, I know that puts me in the insufferable hipster category myself–no hobgoblins for this little mind!) -They overcharged us for the admittedly delicious dinner by $2. We didn’t write a letter of complaint or anything; I just lowballed the tip and never returned. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/29 "2014-12-10T21:20:39Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > When you say it like that, it makes sense. > > I’ve often told people to knock it often when they’re getting recreationally outraged and annoyed for someone else about something that doesn’t actually bother them. But sometimes the unwashed masses do need an advocate, a watchdog, someone to make sure they’re not getting ripped off because they can’t be paying attention all the time. We learn to watch our credit and lock our doors and not tell people our passwords but who makes sure the menu price is the same price on the bill. In my city, the department of weights and measures checks to make sure the scanner at the grocery store is ringing things up correctly, but I don’t think anyone checks up on this kind of stuff and maybe they should check websites and menus in their jurisdiction from time to time. > > Having said that, it wasn’t about the money, if the restaurant gave him the $12 and fixed their menu would that have been the end of it or would we have still heard about it? > > What could he have done and not been a jerk about it? I suppose what he should have done was just alerted them to the error asked them to fix the menu, checked back on it a few days later and when they didn’t, then report them to whoever they get reported to. > > I guess the other question is, who alerted the media? If the teacher is the one who made this public that also makes him a bigger jerkface, it proves that he’s not actually trying to get them to fix their menu just trying to make an example out of them. I tend to agree with this, and I’m a small business owner. I go with whatever price has been quoted to my customer, whether on my website or in talking to them. I’m not sure about the treble damages, but it’s _my_ fuckup if I quote one price and charge another. Pay the $12, change the website, and be done with it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/30 "2014-12-10T21:29:22Z")
It occurs to me that the business owner might benefit greatly from receiving such a letter. I wonder how many customers there are like me, who will notice getting overcharged and won’t bother to write a letter, but also won’t go back to that business again and who might mention it to friends as well? Having an error brought to the business’s attention may end up increasing their profits. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/31 "2014-12-10T21:45:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It occurs to me that the business owner might benefit greatly from receiving such a letter. I wonder how many customers there are like me, who will notice getting overcharged and won’t bother to write a letter, but also won’t go back to that business again and who might mention it to friends as well? Having an error brought to the business’s attention may end up increasing their profits. Exactly. The apology and the refund of the actual discrepancy should have been instant, automatic. _Then_, if the restaurant owner is smart, he gives a free-meal voucher, or something similar, by way of thanks for bringing the problem to his attention, and incidentally to retain the customer, and gain the customer’s friends, as customers. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/32 "2014-12-10T22:03:19Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I tend to agree with this, and I’m a small business owner. I go with whatever price has been quoted to my customer, whether on my website or in talking to them. I’m not sure about the treble damages, but it’s _my_ fuckup if I quote one price and charge another. Pay the $12, change the website, and be done with it. I read all the emails a few hours ago so I may be misremembering this, but I think he offered, several times to pay. He offered to pay $3 ($4), then Ben asked for $12, he offered $12 and Ben asked how he would compensate all the others, he said he would do whatever the authorities asked him to do and Ben asked for 50% off, he offered 50% back and he’s waiting for a response for that (I’ll wager he wants all his money back). That’s why I said earlier that after making the first response of adjusting the bill to give him the $4 back I would have ignored all further emails. He made an offer to adjust the bill, be done with it. Now he’s just feeding a troll. I too run a small business and some people just won’t be happy. I recall a customer who’s delivery I messed up, forgot one item. She called me back, furious (it was a fucking sandwich, one of about 15 and she only had like 10 people there). I offered to run it to her, she was only about 5 minutes from me. “No, I’m in a meeting with people, you can’t just walk in here”, so I offered to send her a new bill with the sandwich taken off “that’s not good enough, then I don’t have that sandwich” Well what the fuck do you want me to do? She didn’t want a credit on her bill but she also didn’t want me to bring her the food, this went back and forth for over 10 minutes, I know that because at one point I recall saying to her “Sue, I mapquested this and from me to you is 7 minutes and we’ve been on the phone for 10, I could have been there by now, I really don’t know what you want from me”. Ugh, she was a dumb bitch and I’m glad that was the last time I heard from her…it was always something. Anyways, he sort of dug himself a hole by saying the mistake has been there for a while, but even after saying that I would have said “Sorry, here’s your $4, I put it back on your credit card” or “I’ll refund your money, just let me know how you want to handle the refund” and that’s the end of it until he lets you know how he wants the $4 back. When he asks for $12 I wouldn’t respond or I would say “No, again, I’m sorry the best I can do is refund you the $4”. After that I’d move on with my life. Part of running a small business is dealing with dickheads and jackasses and morons and a lot of self entitled assholes who think you owe them something. I could go on for days, but I leave you with the saying that the customer is not always right, in fact, they rarely ever are. Oh, and my store is not ‘public property’, you don’t have the right to be there. ETA, as far as the other customers, I wouldn’t even discuss that with him, it’s none of his concern unless he wants to start a class action lawsuit. I wouldn’t even respond to those comments in the emails or if he was really be annoying about it maybe a simple ‘We’re going to figure something out, but it’s a private matter between us and our customers and not something we’ll be discussing with you, thank you for your concern though.’ It should be easy enough for him to go through his system and give all the customers who’ve ordered in the last year a few, say, 25% off coupons or something. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/33 "2014-12-10T22:11:34Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > Mr. Edelman is like the dude who sued for seven figure when a dry cleaner lost his pants. No, that was DC (ex-) judge [Roy Pearson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_v._Chung). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/34 "2014-12-10T22:54:14Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I read all the emails a few hours ago so I may be misremembering this, but I think he offered, several times to pay. He offered to pay $3 ($4), then Ben asked for $12, he offered $12 and Ben asked how he would compensate all the others, he said he would do whatever the authorities asked him to do and Ben asked for 50% off, he offered 50% back and he’s waiting for a response for that (I’ll wager he wants all his money back). Well, it started with Ben bringing up the matter, and the proprietor saying “sorry, old menu, here’s the new menu” and not offering to make things right (in charging the posted price). Then Ben asks for $12, obviously being pissed off by the non-response, and then the proprietor offers $3. Then there’s another round, where it escalates, and only then does the guy offer the $12. Now, it could be that Ben was going to be a dick about it anyhow, but in round one, I would have said “Oh, sorry about that. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I’ll credit you $4 for the difference (or meal’s on me, or whatever I feel is appropriate)” and take care of it. Yes, you will always have unreasonable customers, and Ben is being a bit of a dick about it. But I feel like this situation could have been nipped in the bud early on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/35 "2014-12-10T22:52:58Z")
I’m taking Edelman’s side in this. He was taking the prices off the restaurant’s current online menu and then he was charged higher prices. That is simply wrong. The only thing I disagree with was Edelman’s initial offer to settle the dispute for twelve dollars. He should have only asked for the four dollars difference between the menu prices and what he was charged. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/36 "2014-12-10T23:03:05Z")
Axe grinders can’t hear very well. I also read the email exchange and had a different take on it as well. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/37 "2014-12-11T00:21:58Z")
Can I vote, “they are both being dicks”. The proprietor should have apologized and offered to refund the money (with perhaps something extra to sweeten the pot) in round 1, but just offered an updated menu. Not offering to fix the mistake, and then adding insult to injury by offering the wrong amount in round 2 was completely dickish. But the customer is a dick to keep upping his demands. Just ask for an apology and an updated website. If you think it’s intentional, report it to the authorities. But don’t haggle for a couple of dollars. That makes him look awfully petty. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/38 "2014-12-11T00:27:24Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > If I noticed the difference, which I probably wouldn’t, I would have just assumed the web site was out of date and not worried about it. One dollar increase on each item? Big whoop. And if this had been going on for, say a year, for each customer that ordered? Big whoop then? That could be a serious amount of money. And what the proprietor of the restaurant is doing is illegal. The proprietor should have apologized, offered a refund and instantly updated the prices. He didn’t do that. If he had done that one could assume it was an honest mistake. Since he didn’t do that, the answer is that the proprietor is overcharging on purpose. That is theft. My answer, when you find someone behaving in that sort of manner, is to land on them with both feet. For example, there was a gas station outside of Albuquerque I stopped at on a trip to fill up. I put 24 gallons of gas into a 22 gallon tank. Long story short, after complaining to the state AG, the gas station chain was found to be ripping off everyone who gassed up at all of their stations. Slee ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/39 "2014-12-11T01:12:24Z")
I think the restaurant owner is a dick. He raised his prices and did not bother to update his website to reflect this. How hard is it to update a website? Meanwhile this site that has prices that are lower than the prices he actually charges. While I think the customer is overreacting, I don’t exactly think the restaurant owner is particularly a decent person either. He’s basically put up one price on the net and another actual price. I would be miffed if I went there and found they didn’t match. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/40 "2014-12-11T01:33:26Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > My conclusion: > Ben Edelman is a dick-head who lives to cause other people discomfort and pain. I hope that at some point in the future he makes an inadvertent mistake, and someone just like him sues his ass into oblivion, just for shits and giggles. Yep. Personally I think this exchange is priceless. I once worked for a Harvard law grad who was just as much of an insane dick. I once litigated against a Harvard law grad who was even a bigger dick. The restaurant owner was also in the wrong, but not as much of a jerk about it. The upside to this episode is that Harvard litigators can now be treated as a laughingstock: “Our offer is $4 and nothing more. You are a Harvard grad and should know that. By the way, a fortune cookie not included for you.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866.md?page=3)