# It's not the money, it's the principle! No, it's the money **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 10, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866 "2014-12-10T18:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/121 "2014-12-12T13:07:53Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Did it say that before they updated it, or after? The disclaimer was there before. The restaurant mentioned it in their reply to him, and he said he didn’t think that would protect them because they knew about the problem for quite some time and did nothing about it. That was his theory, or the basis of his threats anyway. Instead of buckling under the threat of his awesome dickishness they said they would let their counsel handle it and let him know. Then they made his douchebaggery public and he apologized and dropped the issue. Chances are if it went to court he would not have prevailed unless he could prove this was deliberate fraud and breach of contract and not a simple error covered by their disclaimer. The other restaurant he tried this with before wrote back “good luck with your claim, we will not comply with any of your demands and if you set foot in one of our restaurants again we will have you escorted out by the police”. He dropped that one too. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/122 "2014-12-12T14:47:31Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > The other restaurant he tried this with before wrote back “good luck with your claim, we will not comply with any of your demands and if you set foot in one of our restaurants again we will have you escorted out by the police”. He dropped that one too. In case anyone was wondering, [here](http://www.boston.com/food-dining/restaurants/2014/12/10/there-more-edelman-did-this-before-and-worse/00mTW39jcyXb3VNHZoXEYN/story.html) is the story about the other time. Edelman wanted to use his Groupons for the prix fixe menu, but the restaurant didn’t allow him to because it was construed as “any other offer”. Edelman threatened them by saying he would combat their licensing for food and drink. They basically told him to fuck off. Good for them. The Hungry Douche strikes again! ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/123 "2014-12-12T15:30:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Many people have seen my emails with Ran Duan of Sichuan Garden restaurant in Brookline. Having reflected on my interaction with Ran, including what I said and how I said it, it’s clear that I was very much out of line. I aspire to act with great respect and humility in dealing with others, no matter what the situation. Clearly I failed to do so. I am sorry, and I intend to do better in the future. I have reached out to Ran and will apologize to him personally as well. Much like the recent Congressional staffer who “after many hours of prayer” realized she was wrong to make snarky comments about the Obama girls, I think if you have to reflect to realize you were a douche then you’re still a douche, but just a douche who’s sorry they got an avalanche of shit poured on them. I wonder if Edelman is familiar with the existence of YELP or Harvard’s message boards where he could probably do more damage than the $12 and nobody would think he was being a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/124 "2014-12-12T15:56:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The fact that it is an advertisement (with which I fully agree) is not controlling. An advertisement is not binding on a merchant, but that doesn’t mean a merchant has no duty to advise its customers that it is not honoring a posted price. Yes. It is _ethically_ controlling. The merchant’s duty is to honor their ads, or explain that they won’t, before taking someone’s money. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/125 "2014-12-12T15:58:37Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > In case anyone was wondering, [here](http://www.boston.com/food-dining/restaurants/2014/12/10/there-more-edelman-did-this-before-and-worse/00mTW39jcyXb3VNHZoXEYN/story.html) is the story about the other time. Or you could read [post 44 from this very thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17967014&postcount=44). ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/126 "2014-12-12T16:02:49Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Yes. It is _ethically_ controlling. The merchant’s duty is to honor their ads, or explain that they won’t, before taking someone’s money. So anytime a restaurant increases their prices, they are morally required to track down every menu previously handed out and replace them with new ones? Perhaps they should be required to put up a huge sign on their front door saying “Recent price increases inside!”. Maybe, now they found the error, they should poll every person who ordered from them as to what they thought they were going to pay, and then give them the difference. Yes, they fucked up by not updating the website. Yes, they should have immediately given him his $4 back (but after he started with the threats, I’m fine with them telling him to go fuck himself). Yes, they made mistakes. But the expectations expressed in this thread, and the conclusions of the necessity of some kind of governmental action, are totally over the top ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/127 "2014-12-12T16:03:39Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I wonder if Edelman is familiar with the existence of YELP or Harvard’s message boards where he could probably do more damage than the $12 and nobody would think he was being a dick. [Yelp has certainly been very kind to Sichuan Garden](http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/12/11/sichuan-garden-overwhelmed-by-outpouring-support/) as a result of this incident. Business is booming there. HBS students have a campaign to raise contributions in $4 increments to the Greater Boston Food Bank, too; up to $5k or so and climbing. Plus Edelman now knows he’s a dick and that the whole world thinks so too. It remains to be seen, though, if he’s going to be allowed to lecture at HBS about how you can be right and still be wrong. So it’s all good. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/128 "2014-12-12T16:05:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Or you could read [post 44 from this very thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17967014&postcount=44). Sorry I didn’t read every post in the thread before posting the same information. I’ll give you $4 off your next order with us. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/129 "2014-12-12T16:09:48Z")
He might offer a lecture on not posting or emailing anything you don’t want blasted across the internet. Especially not when you’re a professor at a supposedly elite business school. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/130 "2014-12-12T16:46:50Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > So anytime a restaurant increases their prices, they are morally required to track down every menu previously handed out and replace them with new ones? Perhaps they should be required to put up a huge sign on their front door saying “Recent price increases inside!”. Of course not. But any prices posted on the premises should be up to date. If you go through the drive-thru at a restaurant, and when you get to the window they charge you more than what it said on the menu board, it’s not good enough that they just didn’t get around to updating their price listings. A website is more problematic: is it more like something posted on the premises, or more like printed information that was handed out? What are the expectations on keeping a website up-to-date? Technically, it can be updated as soon as anything changes, but in practice we know that doesn’t always happen. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/131 "2014-12-12T16:48:05Z")
I wonder if he was bullied as a kid, cause he totally is a bully now. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/132 "2014-12-12T16:55:44Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I wonder if he was bullied as a kid, cause he totally is a bully now. I don’t necessarily buy that. I think that a lot of people are assholes as kids and then they get bullied because they are assholes, and then they grow up up and say I was bullied as a kid so now I’m an asshole, but they were really just assholes all along. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/133 "2014-12-12T16:59:34Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > I don’t necessarily buy that. I think that a lot of people are assholes as kids and then they get bullied because they are assholes, and then they grow up up and say I was bullied as a kid so now I’m an asshole. True that. Reminds me of a few years ago when a flamboyant gay guy that I knew and a lot of other people knew and who I’ll call Daniel (since that’s not his name) got beaten up by a couple of sailors while on vacation in Boston. There was a short lived minor news frenzy and it was called a hate crime, while the people who knew him here- including several out-n-proud gays, myself included- all thought and said that we’d have to see video of the alleged bashing before we’d think anything more than “The asshole probably had it coming”. (He’d been “gaybashed” by more than one gay guy because he was just OBNOXIOUS and sexually harassing to good looking guys when drunk and not much better when sober.) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/134 "2014-12-12T17:22:22Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > It was essentially a picture of a old menu. Anyone wishing to make a purchase would have to contact the restaurant by phone or go in person, in which case they’d have ample opportunity to be informed of what the actual costs would be before paying. Walmart also posts “pictures” of their weekly sales ads. Would it be OK if once you got to the store, the prices were $1.00 higher per item? If you only purchase one item that was advertised at $9.99, but rings up at $10.99, you might catch it, and either ask for the lower price, or decline to buy the item. But if you have a cartful of a week’s groceries, you probably wouldn’t notice each price. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/135 "2014-12-12T17:31:13Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > And on that note : > > From [MGL 93a](https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXV/Chapter93A/Section2). (Massachusetts General Law) > > And turning to the FTCA : > > From the [IT Law Wiki](http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Section_5_of_the_FTC_Act). > > Insert Latin phrase of your choice indicating triumph. None of those say that a business must honor an advertised price. The principle of fariness is invoked, but over and over it is stressed that each case must be looked at individually. Also, Mr. Edelman’s complaint would likely fail the material test, as he admitted the food was delicious. Also, he had numerous opportunites to bring the difference to the attention of the restaurant before he paid for his meal. Again: there is no law that I know of that forces a business to sell items only at advertised prices. And if there is one, I’ll bet doughnuts that it makes lots of exceptions: no business would ever be forced by law to sell an item for a price that is a typo or otherwise erroneous. Again: this is not a bait & switch. The restaurant had the items ordered and provided them, just at a different price than the buyer initially thought was indicated. And the price change was not arbitrary, it was because of an error. The website, I’m sure has a verifiable publishing date, and since at that time the prices were accurate, I doubt they would face any sanctions from any government agency. I’d bet they be told or directed or advised to update the website, but since a 3rd party maintains it and the restaurant has no direct control over it, I doubt even that would be enforceable. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/136 "2014-12-12T18:28:31Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Walmart also posts “pictures” of their weekly sales ads. Would it be OK if once you got to the store, the prices were $1.00 higher per item? > > If you only purchase one item that was advertised at $9.99, but rings up at $10.99, you might catch it, and either ask for the lower price, or decline to buy the item. > > But if you have a cartful of a week’s groceries, you probably wouldn’t notice each price. It depends on how you want to define ‘OK’ It’s shitty customer service if they left up last weeks weekly sales ad but went back to the original price. If they put up an ad that they never intended to honor in hopes of drawing in customers they might meet the states guidelines for unfair or deceptive acts. In either case I wouldn’t shop there again. Same applies to the restaurant. In either case if I tried to demand three times compensation under the threat of legal action I’d be an asshole. Walmart wouldn’t and shouldn’t pay me three times without court action. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/137 "2014-12-12T18:49:33Z")
Well, thanks **Snowboarder Bo**. At least I know I exist in this thread. If you can fault the extremely direct and plain language I highlighted in the quote from the FTCA, I’m done here. Think I’ll go to 46th Street North and throw my research into the Quarry Landfill. Ta. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/138 "2014-12-12T18:49:57Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > So anytime a restaurant increases their prices, they are morally required to track down every menu previously handed out and replace them with new ones? No, I didn’t say anything of the sort. They can reasonably be expected to make their currently-published advertising accurate. Yes, an active (not archived) web site is current publishing. > [@](#): > > Maybe, now they found the error, they should poll every person who ordered from them as to what they thought they were going to pay, and then give them the difference. I didn’t suggest that either. But that probably would regain a few customers they had lost in the course of (what we shall charitably call) the careless practice. > [@](#): > > Yes, they fucked up by not updating the website… But the expectations expressed in this thread, and the conclusions of the necessity of some kind of governmental action, are totally over the top ridiculous. I don’t know who _in this thread_ suggested government action was necessary. I certainly didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/139 "2014-12-13T03:51:39Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Well, thanks **Snowboarder Bo**. At least I know I exist in this thread. If you can fault the extremely direct and plain language I highlighted in the quote from the FTCA, I’m done here. Think I’ll go to 46th Street North and throw my research into the Quarry Landfill. Ta. I wasn’t faulting it, I was referring to it. The requirements that have to be fulfilled for a complaint to have merit are multifold and I laid out a couple of areas where I didn’t think Mr. Douchenozzle could make a winning case and why. But you made no arguments other than pasting some text and then quitting. Looks like I win. WOOT! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866/140 "2014-12-13T04:01:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > I’d bet they be told or directed or advised to update the website, but since a 3rd party maintains it and the restaurant has no direct control over it, I doubt even that would be enforceable. Yeah, as I noted upthread that is basically the worst case scenario, and I suspect that the owner was aware of the toothlessness of the consumer protection agency, at least in a vague sense. My reading suggests that persistent web mispricing by a sizable firm would be another matter, but that’s not the case here. > [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Their website has a disclaimer at the top that says “menus and prices may vary by location.” > > The prick who tried to bully them into giving him his food for half price under legal threats (before backing down and dropping the matter and apologizing)… The total was about $53. $12/$53 is not half price. It’s more like 23% off. And it may not have been bullying - it may have been _getting the owner’s attention_, which let’s remember was a 3 location business. It’s not like Edelman suggested this on round 1. A $8 punitive demand by email on a $53 bill is bullying? Really? Irregular sure. Eyebrow raising ok. But bullying? It’s not like he was challenged to a dual. I am outraged at the hyperbole engaged by Edelman’s opponents, just as I am oblivious to my own use of comparable rhetoric. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-not-the-money-its-the-principle-no-its-the-money/706866.md?page=8)