# It's nucular, Lisa: NUCULAR **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687 "2005-02-12T01:45:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/121 "2005-04-13T19:53:44Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Would we have the same discussion about the word “doesn’t”? Are you one of the people who say “dudn’t”? > > Guess what my take on that word would be? It’s not correct; I don’t care if all of Dixie says it that way. That dudn’t matter. You’ve still not grasped the essential point. More importantly, you’re doing the equivalent of plugging your ears and singing “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” Near as I can tell, you’re not interested in the facts on this issue. > [@](#): > > Can these people say the following sentence: I bought a shiny new clear window for my bedroom? Please don’t tell me they say "shiny nucular window’. Of course they don’t. So why when shown the word nuclear, told its pronunciation, would someone say “new-clear …uh no… new-cue-ler yes…”. Because they think you’re being an ignorant jerk when you deign to tell them its pronunciation, and why should they do what an ignorant jerk tells them to do? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/122 "2005-04-13T19:54:47Z")
I will condense what I believe your position is: Anything goes as long as you’re understood. I disagree. I feel there should be a standard; I make no call on who gets to be the standard bearer but I would probably accept a group of English language scholars. Don’t they have groups that do this to add words to the dictionary? If they can add words then they should also be able to standardize the pronunciations. To me vowel and consonant sounds are completely different animals and I couldn’t even put into words why I feel one could vary and one shouldn’t. To me it’s axiomatic. Aren’t there languages (Hebrew for one I think) where vowels are not written at all, only the consonants? And don’t they have standard pronunciations (the consonants)? I think we get into a huff here because English is so full of exceptions that people don’t want to bother codifying it for the future. It’s an understandable viewpoint but one with which I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/123 "2005-04-13T19:57:24Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Guess what my take on that word would be? It’s not correct; I don’t care if all of Dixie says it that way. And what makes it “correct”? Can you justify it? You can repeat over and over that one way is wrong and one way is right, but you’re still just repeating the same dogmatic idiocy if you can’t come up with any justification. (Read through the thread before trying to come up with a justification. I don’t feel like explaining the same things twice.) If you can’t come up with some way of establishing “correct” and “incorrect”, then you might as well just be making shit up off the top of your head. You can’t expect anyone else to adhere to what you decide is “correct” when you can’t even come up with any argument to demonstrate that it’s correct. Appealing to some nebulous authority won’t cut it - you have to come up with proof here. Repeating “I’m right and they’re wrong!” all day won’t impress anyone. Or just admit that you’re holding people to some arbitrary “standard” and acknowledge that it’s naked, mindless prejudice. > [@BwanaBob](#): > > I guess I’m dense. I cannot conceive of someone willfully deciding that they cannot pronounce a word as first taught to them, create a new form and pass that one along. Do you understand that children who pronounce it “nucular” learned it that way from their community? > [@BwanaBob](#): > > Can these people say the following sentence: I bought a shiny new clear window for my bedroom? Please don’t tell me they say "shiny nucular window’. Of course they don’t. So why when shown the word nuclear, told its pronunciation, would someone say “new-clear …uh no… new-cue-ler yes…”. Read the thread, idiot. I’ve already pointed out that “nuclear” does not have two syllables, no matter which variation you’re using. But you’re reinforcing my point about people with irrational linguistic prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/124 "2005-04-13T20:00:21Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I will condense what I believe your position is: > > Anything goes as long as you’re understood. > > I disagree. > > I feel there should be a standard; You’re actually pretty close with the condensation, and maybe we can use it to get to the point where you understand the intricacies of it. Let’s try. You feel there should be a standard: What purpose does this standard serve? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/125 "2005-04-13T20:01:39Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I will condense what I believe your position is: > > Anything goes as long as you’re understood. Reread the thread, moron. I offered to rewrite with smaller words if that’s why you persist in claiming we’ve said things that we’ve never said. This exact point has been addressed in this thread (and every other thread relating to prescriptive grammar.) If you can’t manage to do that, then kindly step off and admit that you have absolutely _no_ grounds to judge other people’s language usage. Or just note the disconnect in your earlier thread: “My brother’s smart and educated and he pronounces this word different from me. People who do that are lazy and uneducated.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/126 "2005-04-13T20:03:49Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Reread the thread, moron. I offered to rewrite with smaller words if that’s why you persist in claiming we’ve said things that we’ve never said. To be fair, you and I are arguing slightly different points, and what he said is close to (although not exactly) a paraphrase of my argument, not yours. Keep in mind that his “Anything goes” has a big honking qualifier attached to it, one which I think he doesn’t fully appreciate. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/127 "2005-04-13T20:04:34Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I feel there should be a standard; I make no call on who gets to be the standard bearer but I would probably accept a group of English language scholars. Don’t they have groups that do this to add words to the dictionary? If they can add words then they should also be able to standardize the pronunciations. Missed this gem. :: rolls on the floor, trying to contain laughter :: You seriously think there’s some central board that determines when a word gets put in dictionaries and when it doesn’t? You believe there’s some authority who decides what qualifies as good English and what doesn’t? Some organization that is empowered to determine usage rules? (And furthermore, you think there’s some reason we should base our use of English on some bureaucracy’s decisions?) My, I wasn’t all that serious earlier when I said you were an idiot. But God damn do people like you do a good job of proving me right on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/128 "2005-04-13T20:05:48Z")
You may find this interesting: In this area (NYC) there are speaking classes where people learn to remove their New Yawk/Brooklyn accents because they feel they are perceived to be less intelligent than those who speak a more vanilla form of English (your newscaster speak). They are understandable - you would have these classes disbanded because…? I live here, I agree with them, in fact I was raised to speak that way ‘in my community’ and have risen above it. (Yeah, yeah, bully for me). Under times of extreme duress my “New yawk” comes out and I want to shoot myself when it does. I think it’s just as bad as nucular etc. So you feel I am a self-hater for no just cause? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/129 "2005-04-13T20:08:20Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > They are understandable - you would have these classes disbanded because…? Please, please, please don’t try to guess what I’d do. You’re suckin at it. I wouldn’t have those classes disbanded; people are free to do what they need to do to achieve whatever they consider success, as long as it’s not harming other people. If they dislike their accents, I’m not gonna tell them they have to keep them. I’m not an idiot. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/130 "2005-04-13T20:09:16Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Missed this gem. > > :: rolls on the floor, trying to contain laughter :: > > You seriously think there’s some central board that determines when a word gets put in dictionaries and when it doesn’t? You believe there’s some authority who decides what qualifies as good English and what doesn’t? Some organization that is empowered to determine usage rules? (And furthermore, you think there’s some reason we should base our use of English on some bureaucracy’s decisions?) > > My, I wasn’t all that serious earlier when I said you were an idiot. But God damn do people like you do a good job of proving me right on this issue. You know I’ve attempted to be civil but you just seem to be a cocksucker. I know in Germany they do have such a board that add words, maintains language standards. So I’m an asshole for hoping/thinking English had an analagous group? Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/131 "2005-04-13T20:09:32Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > To me vowel and consonant sounds are completely different animals and I couldn’t even put into words why I feel one could vary and one shouldn’t. To me it’s axiomatic. So you’ve made some arbitrary rule and can’t defend it. You know why you can’t defend it? Because it’s wrong. (And moronic.) Dialectual variation is okay for vowels, but not for consonants? How absolutely bizarre. So what about the Brits, who routinely don’t even pronounce a certain consonant (that being “r”)? Who’s wrong there? Of course, you might note that “nuclear” and “nucular” have exactly the same consonants. They only differ in their vowels. Apparently you don’t even hold to the rule you just made up. > [@BwanaBob](#): > > I think we get into a huff here because English is so full of exceptions that people don’t want to bother codifying it for the future. It’s an understandable viewpoint but one with which I disagree. English is not “full of exceptions” in any meaningful sense. And you think we need to “codify” English for the future? Why? Because people will forget how to speak it otherwise? Why are you so intent on having a million rules to guide language use? Why should there be some central authority defining how language is to be used? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/132 "2005-04-13T20:14:03Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > You know I’ve attempted to be civil but you just seem to be a cocksucker. Y’know, arguing with folks defending your position sort of feels like arguing with a Creationist. Think about that, and understand why it leads to mockery sometimes. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/133 "2005-04-13T20:16:25Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > They are understandable - you would have these classes disbanded because…? When you continue to argue by assigning a viewpoint and then demanding that the other side defend it (in debate, this is known as a “straw man”) you just reveal that you can’t defend your own opinion. > [@BwanaBob](#): > > You know I’ve attempted to be civil but you just seem to be a cocksucker. > > I know in Germany they do have such a board that add words, maintains language standards. So I’m an asshole for hoping/thinking English had an analagous group? > > Fuck you. No. You’re a moron for thinking it. No, more precisely, you’re a moron because you keep saying things that reveal that you have zero knowledge of what you’re talking about and yet you continue to think your view somehow has some relevance when compared to the attitudes of linguists (as in, people who are _actually_ experts on language) - who all disagree with you. Good luck setting up your English bureaucracy, though. People _love_ following rules that have no purpose from organizations with no transparency. Nothing gets the public excited more than new bureaucracy. If you want me to be nice, read through the thread, and start raising issues that haven’t been raised. Take some time to understand the viewpoint you’re disagreeing with because it gets tiring having to explain the same thing over and over. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/134 "2005-04-13T20:17:39Z")
Incidentally, Bob, I _am_ a cocksucker. Do you have something against gay people, or just people who don’t talk exactly the same way you do? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/135 "2005-04-13T20:27:05Z")
I think that how people pronounce realtor will depend, not upon what associations they belong to, but upon how their speech patterns have formed since childhood. In the South, lots of realtors say “REAL-uh-ter”. It seems to me that pronouncing a word some “acceptable” way is not so much a sign of how intelligent you are, but of how dependent you are upon the approval of others. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/136 "2005-04-13T21:25:21Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > > [@BwanaBob](#): > > > > I will condense what I believe your position is: > > Anything goes as long as you’re understood. > > You’re actually pretty close with the condensation As an extreme example, if a certain region started pronouncing “water” as “pickle” (while still continuing to spell it “water”), and 50 years from now, it was very widespread, would you have a problem with that? If there is no “correct” pronunciation, then a group of people could theoretically pronounce a word any way they like, and not just by simple changes to the existing pronunciation. If you think pronouncing “water” as “pickle” is fine, then you are consistent. If you think it is not fine, could you please explain why? I know the example is extreme, but could you still address the issue? Are there _any_ pronunciations of a written word that are wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/137 "2005-04-13T21:32:37Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > As an extreme example, if a certain region started pronouncing “water” as “pickle” (while still continuing to spell it “water”), and 50 years from now, it was very widespread, would you have a problem with that? Your example is, to the best of my knowledge, completely unlike how language changes, so it’s a moot question. If a small group of people started pronouncing “water” as “pickle,” their immediate inefficacy in communication would act as a strong deterrent to their continuing to do so, and the picklewater movement would die a swift death. But let’s say it happens, through God only knows what mechanism. Why would I have a problem with it? Who died and made me Mr. Language Police? Either they’ll be able to communicate effectively or they won’t. And if they are, bully for them; and if they aren’t, too bad, so sad. Now, if I’m talking to someone and they say, “Man, I could really go for some pickle with this sandwich!” I’ll ask for clarification, just as if they’d something else with multiple potential meanings (“I told my mom I wanted a sandwich yesterday!”) And I’ll probably incorporate it into my smartass pun-based humor, to the annoyance of my friends. No biggie. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/138 "2005-04-13T21:39:30Z")
I don’t know what Left Hand of Dorkness will say, but I think your question is interesting, Polerius, and I would like to address it. For me, understanding is the key. There’s a difference between pronouncing “water” as PICK-uhl and pronouncing it as, say, WAW-duh. The second one is fairly prominent in some areas of the South (and in rock music), and so is recognizable, at least to me, as “water”. There are some pronunciations that drive me crazy. I hate — _hate_ — to hear PRAH-lee for “probably”. But I feel like that’s a matter of my taste, and not of the speaker’s intelligence. Even former president Clinton pronounces the word that way, and he is quite intelligent. (On preview, I see that Left Hand of Dorkness has posted, but I’m going to submit anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/139 "2005-04-13T21:50:22Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > But let’s say it happens, through God only knows what mechanism. Why would I have a problem with it? Who died and made me Mr. Language Police? > Either they’ll be able to communicate effectively or they won’t. And if they are, bully for them; and if they aren’t, too bad, so sad. > > Now, if I’m talking to someone and they say, “Man, I could really go for some pickle with this sandwich!” I’ll ask for clarification, just as if they’d something else with multiple potential meanings (“I told my mom I wanted a sandwich yesterday!”) And I’ll probably incorporate it into my smartass pun-based humor, to the annoyance of my friends. No biggie. Hmmm, I didn’t mean to pick a word that was a food item, and thus could be confused with water. I was just trying to pick a sound that was very dissimilar to water. Let’s use “packle” then. In any case, you seem not to have a problem with people pronouncing “water” as “packle” (while still spelling it “water”), which is fine. You have a consistent rule which reflects your preferences. Personally, I wouldn’t be fine with people spelling the word “water” but pronouncing it “packle”. If they want to pronounce it “packle” they should just spell it that way. Then, there would be two words to describe H20: water and packle, which would be fine. Similarly, if people want to say nucular, spell it “nucular”, not “nuclear”. Then we would just have two words describing the same thing. The funny thing is, I wonder whether there were big arguments when people started pronouncing Wednesday as “Wen-sday” instead of “Wed-nes-day”. Little did they know that the “wrong” pronunciation would eclipse the “correct” one 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687/140 "2005-04-13T22:07:48Z")
Thank you Polerius for wading through the crap and finding an elegant solution to a problem that some don’t see as a problem. Two spellings for two differently pronounced words that happen to mean the same thing. Beautiful. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-nucular-lisa-nucular/289687.md?page=8)