# It's official: Hillary lost MI, PA, WI by less than the Jill Stein vote in those states **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 13, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628 "2016-12-13T18:26:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/41 "2016-12-14T15:01:52Z")
Sure, it was on the menu, but three servers and the manager told you they were out of lobster and you didn’t listen. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/42 "2016-12-14T15:04:12Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > A [Washington Post article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/13/3-election-stats-liberals-love-that-dont-mean-as-much-as-they-seem/?utm_term=.828bc37cd30d) disputes that Stein cost Clinton the election noting that a majority of Stein voters told exit polls in Michigan that they would have stayed home rather than vote for Clinton or (the horror) they would have voted Trump. Proving what we already hopefully all know quite well about Stein voters. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/43 "2016-12-14T15:10:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Gun control wasn’t one of them, as there where ZERO people who didn’t vote for her but otherwise would have were it not for gun control. You’re wrong. I don’t think you know very many pro-gun people. There is a real sense among a lot of Democratic gun owning union members in rust belt states that the Democratic establishment is moving away from them. I know at least a few people who have never voted before who voted for Trump mostly because of her attack on gun rights during the primary. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/44 "2016-12-14T15:13:16Z")
> [@desertmonk](#): > > Why do people assume that the Stein votes would have gone for Clinton? It’s much more likely that they would have stayed home if it was a choice between Trump and Clinton. Because it allows them to shift blame away from Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/45 "2016-12-14T15:14:48Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > On a more serious note, Hillary did win by a landslide, 59% to 35%, amongst the 75% of voters who are not White evangelical or born-again Christians…It is that damn demographic that really screwed the country over. I guess they want their rapture. (See [Election 2016: Exit Polls - The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html)) How did she do in those demographics compared to Obama? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/46 "2016-12-14T15:17:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Too lazy to dig it up now, but the exit polls did identify white evangelical/born-agains, who went for Trump by an 81-16 margin, IIRC. > > If white evangelicals/born-agains were 25% of this year’s electorate, then the ones who voted for Trump were about 20.25% of the electorate. Considering that 46% of the voters voted for Trump, that means that about 44% of Trump voters were white evangelicals. He couldn’t have done it without them. That’s probably true of every Republican candidate since Reagan. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/47 "2016-12-14T17:31:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Disagree. I saw plenty of people saying that they were voting against Hillary based solely on her perceived antipathy to the Second Amendment. I suspect our own \*\*Bone \*\*was among them, though he’s in California and it can’t have made much difference. Well, I pulled the lever for Johnson - but if I was in a state that mattered, I may have voted for Trump. I could weather all of the bad stuff that I disagree with Clinton on, except for her position on guns. Gun people vote in blocks, and every enthusiast board I know pushed for Trump pretty hard. I’d take pleasure if I knew that Clinton’s gun positions cost her the election. ETA: I know some gun rights groups are taking that credit, but I think that’s premature. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/48 "2016-12-14T18:36:19Z")
Last week it was the dumb-assed uneducated white folks, this week it’s the Greens, or maybe the NRA … Next week the gays? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/49 "2016-12-14T18:46:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Disagree. I saw plenty of people saying that they were voting against Hillary based solely on her perceived antipathy to the Second Amendment. I suspect our own \*\*Bone \*\*was among them, though he’s in California and it can’t have made much difference. It’s hard to believe anyone really thinks ‘ZERO’ people are Democrat leaning but vote against them on gun control. I know some people who say they are, I’ve seen plenty of people on gun collector (not guns rights per se) forums who say they are. I doubt they are all lying. It’s more likely IMO someone saying such voters don’t exist is just having trouble getting out of their bubble. I’d actually say the same even for the assumption Jill Stein took _all_ or nearly all her votes from Hillary. In MI with ~5 times as many Stein votes as Trump margin it seems safe to say Clinton would have won it w/o Stein, all else equal. But PA where Stein votes only slightly exceeded Trump margin not as clear IMO. The thinking of some voters is hard for strongly left/right types to get their heads around IME. Though again, a general leftish minor party candidate (Stein) is obviously going to hurt the Democrats net. And a generally rightish one (Perot) is going to hurt the GOP net. A lot of people here seemed to assume Johnson was siphoning net votes from Trump, there were threads based on that assumption, but it’s not mentioned much now (it was always questionable, though not proven Trump wasn’t hurt at all in those 3 key states by Johnson). ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/50 "2016-12-14T19:12:08Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Well, I pulled the lever for Johnson - but if I was in a state that mattered, I may have voted for Trump. I could weather all of the bad stuff that I disagree with Clinton on, except for her position on guns. Gun people vote in blocks, and every enthusiast board I know pushed for Trump pretty hard. I’d take pleasure if I knew that Clinton’s gun positions cost her the election. > > ETA: I know some gun rights groups are taking that credit, but I think that’s premature. Well god forbid your fetish be infringed on in even the slightest way. Fuck the gays, fuck the pregnant rape victims, fuck the victims of police violence, fuck the transgender people who just want acceptance, fuck the newspapers who might want to cover the president in a less-than-positive way, fuck literally any other criterion, as long as you’re allowed to buy literally any gun you want under literally any conditions, and the candidate who made vague, hand-wavey gestures towards maybe appointing supreme court justices who don’t think the 2nd amendment should mean guns should be easier to buy and use than _cars_ gets beat, you’re happy! Single issue voters bug me enough when the single issue is literally “I want to end the mass murder of babies”. Even then it’s foolhardy to pretend that that one issue trumps everything else. But when the single issue is “I really like guns” (or, alternatively, “I have insane fantasies about using my semi-automatic to overthrow a tyrannical government armed with F-35s and Tanks and everyone else needs to indulge those fantasies, regardless the cost”), and you’re willing to overlook _everything else_ for the sake of that… What should I take away from that? ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/51 "2016-12-14T19:12:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If white evangelicals/born-agains were 25% of this year’s electorate, then the ones who voted for Trump were about 20.25% of the electorate. Considering that 46% of the voters voted for Trump, that means that about 44% of Trump voters were white evangelicals. He couldn’t have done it without them. Well . . . so what?? Obama wouldn’t have gotten elected without the African-American vote. And Clinton (I) wouldn’t have gotten elected without the same lower middle class voters that you are disparaging now. Votes are votes, and although the east coast elites (of which I guess I’m technically a part of) don’t want the middle 90% of the nation to have their votes count, they do. As I told my wife (which is no way was an original thought of mine) that when the election was over, one of the parties was going to be pissed that they trotted out a candidate that was somehow less appealing than the other knucklehead and shame on them for doing it. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/52 "2016-12-14T19:13:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s probably true of every Republican candidate since Reagan. Not to this extent: GOP Presidential candidates typically have been winning white evangelicals by margins like 65-30, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/53 "2016-12-14T19:18:06Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Well . . . so what?? > > Obama wouldn’t have gotten elected without the African-American vote. > > And Clinton (I) wouldn’t have gotten elected without the same lower middle class voters that you are disparaging now. Please identify where I disparage lower middle class voters. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/54 "2016-12-14T19:23:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > her attack on gun rights during the primary. _What_ attack on gun rights? IIRC, her rather mild desires for gun control are along the lines of that you should have a background check when you buy a gun, even if you’re not buying it at a gun store. I’m sure she has some other positions on guns that may be even more radical. But educate me, please. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/55 "2016-12-14T19:34:06Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > You can’t cherry pick the Stein vote and say that’s the reason why. Who is saying that? > [@](#): > > What about the Johnson voters? Or the Harambe voters? If one was going to say Hillary lost those three states because of the Stein vote - an argument I hope I made it clear that I’m not making - it would be because the Stein voters aren’t somewhere in between Trump and Clinton, but rather far enough off to her left that they’d almost surely not be Trump voters: their problem with Hillary is the same as that of Nader voters with Gore in 2000: they regarded the Dem as being too similar to the Republican. The same is surely not true of the libertarian candidate in any year, since libertarianism is basically Paul Ryan + marijuana. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/56 "2016-12-14T19:37:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > _What_ attack on gun rights? She claimed that the Heller case, which only prevents an outright ban like what DC or Chicago had, was wrong, and wanted to overturn it. That means that she clearly wanted to pick supreme court justices who would support gun bans in the Us. She also characterized DC’s complete ban on private citizens using guns for self defense as “common sense” gun control aimed at “protecting toddlers”. “Clinton believes Heller was wrongly decided in that cities and states should have the power to craft common sense laws to keep their residents safe, like safe storage laws to prevent toddlers from accessing guns,” Maya Harris, a policy adviser to Clinton, said in an e-mailed statement. “In overturning Washington D.C.'s safe storage law, Clinton worries that Heller may open the door to overturning thoughtful, common sense safety measures in the future.” [https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-05-20/hillary-clinton-believes-pivotal-gun-rights-ruling-was-wrong-adviser-says](https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-05-20/hillary-clinton-believes-pivotal-gun-rights-ruling-was-wrong-adviser-says) > **[Clinton oversimplifies arguements in 2008 gun control case](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/oct/19/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-supreme-court-gun-decision-de/)** > > Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton claimed that her opposition to the 2008 Supreme Court case of District > [@](#): > > IIRC, her rather mild desires for gun control are along the lines of that you should have a background check when you buy a gun, even if you’re not buying it at a gun store. No, she explicitly a complete ban on ordinary people carrying firearms (politicians and rich people’s bodyguards excluded, of course), including in their homes, and objected to the supreme court finding that such bans are not constitutional. I’m not sure why gun control advocates and Hillary supporters deny basic reality so often, but she clearly and explicitly was in favor of DC’s pre-Heller gun laws, which amount to a ban on private citizens having guns for self defense. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/57 "2016-12-14T19:39:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … as long as you’re allowed to buy literally any gun you want under literally any conditions … That’s not true. You probably already know that, but if, on some chance, you actually believe what you wrote here, I’d invite you to call the ATF and ask them. Or go into a gun store and ask them if you can buy a new full-auto M-16. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/58 "2016-12-14T19:47:26Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > She claimed that the Heller case, which only prevents an outright ban like what DC or Chicago had, was wrong, and wanted to overturn it. That means that she clearly wanted to pick supreme court justices who would support gun bans in the Us. She also characterized DC’s complete ban on private citizens using guns for self defense as “common sense” gun control aimed at “protecting toddlers”. > > “Clinton believes Heller was wrongly decided in that cities and states should have the power to craft common sense laws to keep their residents safe, like safe storage laws to prevent toddlers from accessing guns,” Maya Harris, a policy adviser to Clinton, said in an e-mailed statement. “In overturning Washington D.C.'s safe storage law, Clinton worries that Heller may open the door to overturning thoughtful, common sense safety measures in the future.” > > [Hillary Clinton Opposes Heller Gun Rights Ruling, Adviser Says - Bloomberg](https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-05-20/hillary-clinton-believes-pivotal-gun-rights-ruling-was-wrong-adviser-says) > [PolitiFact | Hillary Clinton says Supreme Court gun decision dealt with protecting toddlers](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/19/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-supreme-court-gun-decision-de/) > > No, she explicitly a complete ban on ordinary people carrying firearms (politicians and rich people’s bodyguards excluded, of course), including in their homes, and objected to the supreme court finding that such bans are not constitutional. I’m not sure why gun control advocates and Hillary supporters deny basic reality so often, but she clearly and explicitly was in favor of DC’s pre-Heller gun laws, which amount to a ban on private citizens having guns for self defense. What Hillary _said_, according to you, is that she believes _Heller_ went too far in ruling against state-level safety laws. But you say that _means_ she wants gun bans. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/59 "2016-12-14T19:55:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Gun control wasn’t one of them, as there where ZERO people who didn’t vote for her but otherwise would have were it not for gun control. Maybe not zero, but a very insignificant number. The NRA is in the GOPs pocket and has been for decades. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/60 "2016-12-14T19:57:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If my choices at a restaurant are a day-old chicken salad sandwich or a shit sandwich; there will surely be some people who hold out for lobster Thermador with fair trade quinoa. And when those holdouts get a shit sandwich instead of their wildest desires, one has good reason to question what the hell they were thinking. > > Only in this scenario, these holdouts were unfortunately ordering for the whole room. Yum. Yep. Excellent point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628.md?page=4)