# It's official: Hillary lost MI, PA, WI by less than the Jill Stein vote in those states **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 13, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628 "2016-12-13T18:26:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/61 "2016-12-14T20:05:38Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > _What_ attack on gun rights? > > IIRC, her rather mild desires for gun control are along the lines of that you should have a background check when you buy a gun, even if you’re not buying it at a gun store. > > I’m sure she has some other positions on guns that may be even more radical. But educate me, please. The gun control debate has been going on since before 1968. I don’t think there are any new arguments. Just a rehash of the old ones. The Democrat Party hasn’t been able to make much headway with their repeated registration/confiscation, and gun banning, schemes, but it’s not from a lack of trying. It’s more of a lack of elected representatives. \*Recently, at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire, she was asked about adopting a federal gun control program like the one enacted in Australia in 1996, which banned automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns and mandated the buyback of those already present. Some 650,000 guns were taken from citizens and destroyed. …Clinton replied, “I do not know enough details to tell you how we would do it, or how it would work, but certainly the Australian example is worth looking at.” The reason, she said, is that “by offering to buy back those guns, they were able to curtail the supply and to set a different standard for gun purchases in the future.”\* > **[Hillary Clinton, gun buybacks and a win for the NRA](https://www.chicagotribune.com/2015/10/23/hillary-clinton-gun-buybacks-and-a-win-for-the-nra/)** > > Barack Obama promised he wouldn’t take away anyone’s guns, but gun-rights alarmists have spent seven years incessantly predicting he would. From his experience, Hillary Rodham Clinton s… It’s interesting that the government wants to buy “back” firearms they never actually owned? Many voters believe Hillary (and the Democrat Party) want to ban firearms, and that they would gladly select another Supreme Court Justice who doesn’t believe the 2nd Amendment protects the right of individuals. And those people vote. Against the Hillary-type gun banner. It seems that the Democrat collective prefer to downplay, or ignore, voters who feel this way. Which is fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/62 "2016-12-14T20:06:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Maybe not zero, but a very insignificant number. > > The NRA is in the GOPs pocket and has been for decades. I’m just saying that if you’re an NRA life member, you have never voted for a Democrat for president and no matter what he/she said or didn’t say or did or didn’t do, there is no way in hell that you’ve voting for the Democrat. So I say Democrats should not even bother becoming pro-gun as there is nothing to gain, at least at the presidential level. And I think you have things backwards: The GOP is in the NRA’s pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/63 "2016-12-14T20:06:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Maybe not zero, but a very insignificant number. > > The NRA is in the GOPs pocket and has been for decades. Maybe the NRA is in the GOP’s pocket, but do you think that some combination of the GOP voters who are pro-gun would have stayed home had Clinton not been so anti gun, plus the amount of Democrats that are pro-gun that would have voted but decided to not turn out because of Clinton’s positions was less than 10k in Michigan? Or 22K in Wisconsin? Clinton’s anti-gun positions could have increased GOP turnout and decreased Democratic turn out - the only question is how much. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/64 "2016-12-14T20:17:25Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > What Hillary _said_, according to you, is that she believes _Heller_ went too far in ruling against state-level safety laws. But you say that _means_ she wants gun bans. Hillary agrees with the Supremes who reject the idea that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right. Hillary would have liked to have been able to pick the next Supreme. Or the next three. Unfortunately for you, she won’t get that chance. Many voters believe Hillary/Democrats want to ban firearms. You say that Hillary doesn’t really want to do that. What’s a voter suppose to do? Should they believe you, or trust their own judgment? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/65 "2016-12-14T20:19:30Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The gun control debate has been going on since before 1968. I don’t think there are any new arguments. Just a rehash of the old ones. The Democrat Party hasn’t been able to make much headway with their repeated registration/confiscation, and gun banning, schemes, but it’s not from a lack of trying. It’s more of a lack of elected representatives. > > \*Recently, at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire, she was asked about adopting a federal gun control program like the one enacted in Australia in 1996, which banned automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns and mandated the buyback of those already present. Some 650,000 guns were taken from citizens and destroyed. > > …Clinton replied, “I do not know enough details to tell you how we would do it, or how it would work, but certainly the Australian example is worth looking at.” The reason, she said, is that “by offering to buy back those guns, they were able to curtail the supply and to set a different standard for gun purchases in the future.”\* > > [Hillary Clinton, gun buybacks and a win for the NRA – Chicago Tribune](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-hillary-clinton-gun-buybacks-australia-perspec-1025-jm-20151023-column.html) > > It’s interesting that the government wants to buy “back” firearms they never actually owned? > > Many voters believe Hillary (and the Democrat Party) want to ban firearms, and that they would gladly select another Supreme Court Justice who doesn’t believe the 2nd Amendment protects the right of individuals. And those people vote. Against the Hillary-type gun banner. > > It seems that the Democrat collective prefer to downplay, or ignore, voters who feel this way. Which is fine by me. Taken out of context. Hillary supported _voluntary_ buy back programs. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/66 "2016-12-14T20:22:13Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Who is saying that? > If one was going to say Hillary lost those three states because of the Stein vote - an argument I hope I made it clear that I’m not making - it would be because the Stein voters aren’t somewhere in between Trump and Clinton, but rather far enough off to her left that they’d almost surely not be Trump voters: their problem with Hillary is the same as that of Nader voters with Gore in 2000: they regarded the Dem as being too similar to the Republican. > > The same is surely not true of the libertarian candidate in any year, since libertarianism is basically Paul Ryan + marijuana. If you are not saying that then what was the purpose of the OP? To point out a nifty coincidence? Yes if all Stein voters voted for Hillary she would have won. If all the Stein voters voted for Hillary and all the Johnson voters voted for Trump then Trump would have won. But it is impossible to say who they would have voted for if they weren’t allowed to vote for their candidate. I suspect many would not have voted. So again, what was the purpose of the OP? [Here is an interesting article](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/michigan-hillary-clinton-trump-232547) about how she lost Michigan despite the fact that Trump had fewer votes there than Bush did when he lost the state. Good insight into a bad campaign strategy. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/67 "2016-12-14T20:22:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Taken out of context. Hillary supported _voluntary_ buy back programs. I actually think doorhinge did an admirable job of providing the context, you would just like to hand-wave it away. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/68 "2016-12-14T20:22:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Maybe the NRA is in the GOP’s pocket, but do you think that some combination of the GOP voters who are pro-gun would have stayed home had Clinton not been so anti gun, plus the amount of Democrats that are pro-gun that would have voted but decided to not turn out because of Clinton’s positions was less than 10k in Michigan? Or 22K in Wisconsin? > > Clinton’s anti-gun positions could have increased GOP turnout and decreased Democratic turn out - the only question is how much. True, there may have been a few GOP voters who went to the polls to reluctantly vote for Trump due to worries about Hillary’s positions. Do note that Trump is no friend to gun owners, having supported the same sort of controls Clinton wanted. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/69 "2016-12-14T20:26:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’m just saying that if you’re an NRA life member, you have never voted for a Democrat for president and no matter what he/she said or didn’t say or did or didn’t do, there is no way in hell that you’ve voting for the Democrat. So I say Democrats should not even bother becoming pro-gun as there is nothing to gain, at least at the presidential level. > > And I think you have things backwards: The GOP is in the NRA’s pocket. Shhhhhh. Don’t tell this to anyone else but NRA members vote. Some of them even vote for Democrats. Locally. The DNC doesn’t have to agree that the 2nd is an individual right. The DNC doesn’t have to control either house of Congress, either. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/70 "2016-12-14T20:27:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I actually think doorhinge did an admirable job of providing the context, you would just like to hand-wave it away. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: From the rest of the article:_“It was an unforced error that she will never hear the last of. From how Clinton phrased her answer, though, it’s pretty clear that she was thinking of a voluntary buyback. She compared it to Obama’s “Cash for Clunkers” program and cited voluntary programs done in various cities.”_ Look, I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd AD. But Hillarys mild gun control policies didnt hurt here in the election at all. Note that about half of American voters are \*in favor of mild gun controls. \* ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/71 "2016-12-14T20:28:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > What Hillary _said_, according to you, is that she believes _Heller_ went too far in ruling against state-level safety laws. But you say that _means_ she wants gun bans. Yes, because the only ‘state-level safety laws’ that it prohibits are ones that amount to a ban (that’s not just me using the word ‘ban’, that’s the supreme court and because she explicitly spoke in favor of a complete ban on private citizens possessing guns for self-defense (DC’s pre-Heller laws). It’s pretty amazing that I can produce direct quotes of Hillary Clinton speaking against a supreme court decision that only prohibits a law that included an outright ban on handguns and prohibition on keeping any gun for self- defense, but you’ll try to weasel word it to ‘state-level safety laws’. Or that she outright said that she supported a ban on all handguns and a ban on possessing any gun in condition suitable for self-defense for all regular citizens, but somehow it’s unreasonable to say that she’s in favor of gun bans for… reasons that are unclear. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’m just saying that if you’re an NRA life member, you have never voted for a Democrat for president and no matter what he/she said or didn’t say or did or didn’t do, there is no way in hell that you’ve voting for the Democrat. So I say Democrats should not even bother becoming pro-gun as there is nothing to gain, at least at the presidential level. I’m an NRA life member who voted for Bill Clinton, for the Libs during both of Bush’s runs, for Obama both times, and (solely because of Trump) for Hillary in the last election, so your claim is false on it’s face. I know people who single-issue vote on gun control, and I know other people who sometimes stomach voting for a Democrat and sometimes don’t, with gun control as a major deciding factor. More generally, there are a large number of blue-collar workers who are traditionally both Democratic and Pro-gun, and who the Democrats keep losing the votes of in elections all the while insisting that Hillary’s support of a complete ban on firearms for self-defense, or Gore’s support of a 3-day waiting period for people who pass a background check completely don’t affect election results at all. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/72 "2016-12-14T20:32:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Taken out of context. Hillary supported _voluntary_ buy back programs. Hillary supports the Australian buy-back program, which was not voluntary. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/73 "2016-12-14T20:37:35Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Last week it was the dumb-assed uneducated white folks, this week it’s the Greens, or maybe the NRA … Next week the gays? Next week it’s the Russians. Jan 21 marks the beginning of the week of illegal immigrants. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/74 "2016-12-14T20:39:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd AD. But Hillarys mild gun control policies didnt hurt here in the election at all. Note that about half of American voters are \*in favor of mild gun controls. \* Again, DC had a complete ban on handguns and a complete ban on ordinary citizens having guns for self-defense in their homes. Hillary Clinton specifically said that she supported those laws. The Heller SC decision ruled that such bans (but not regulation in general) were unconstitutional, and she specifically said that she opposed that decision. That’s not ‘mild’ gun control, and nowhere near half of American voters supports a complete ban on having a firearm in suitable condition for self-defense in the home, or a complete ban on all handguns. Even strongly anti-gun States like New York and California don’t have anything that extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/75 "2016-12-14T20:39:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Taken out of context. Hillary supported _voluntary_ buy back programs. “Australian style” wasn’t voluntary. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > _What_ attack on gun rights? > > IIRC, her rather mild desires for gun control are along the lines of that you should have a background check when you buy a gun, even if you’re not buying it at a gun store. > > I’m sure she has some other positions on guns that may be even more radical. But educate me, please. Clinton wanted to repeal the PLCAA. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well god forbid your fetish be infringed on in even the slightest way. Fuck the gays, fuck the pregnant rape victims, fuck the victims of police violence, fuck the transgender people who just want acceptance, fuck the newspapers who might want to cover the president in a less-than-positive way, fuck literally any other criterion, as long as you’re allowed to buy literally any gun you want under literally any conditions, and the candidate who made vague, hand-wavey gestures towards maybe appointing supreme court justices who don’t think the 2nd amendment should mean guns should be easier to buy and use than _cars_ gets beat, you’re happy! > > Single issue voters bug me enough when the single issue is literally “I want to end the mass murder of babies”. Even then it’s foolhardy to pretend that that one issue trumps everything else. But when the single issue is “I really like guns” (or, alternatively, “I have insane fantasies about using my semi-automatic to overthrow a tyrannical government armed with F-35s and Tanks and everyone else needs to indulge those fantasies, regardless the cost”), and you’re willing to overlook _everything else_ for the sake of that… What should I take away from that? You’re characterization isn’t even remotely accurate. How about this - I want the right to be able to carry the same gun that a great number of police officers carry. I’m willing to pay thousands of dollars to do that, I’ll take POST training, submit to whatever background checks are available, and pretty much any other hoop that is even close to reasonable. But I can’t. Because the most populous state in the Union doesn’t grant permits for the vast majority of its citizens. If you could get everything else on the agenda you want, but have to go full NRA and more on guns, is that a worthwhile compromise? If not, then you’re making the same trade offs you identify in your first paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/76 "2016-12-14T20:39:30Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What should I take away from that? The same thing you should take away from all the people that voted on the single issue of “Don’t vote for Orange Hitler.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/77 "2016-12-14T20:39:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: > > From the rest of the article:_“It was an unforced error that she will never hear the last of. From how Clinton phrased her answer, though, it’s pretty clear that she was thinking of a voluntary buyback. She compared it to Obama’s “Cash for Clunkers” program and cited voluntary programs done in various cities.”_ > > Look, I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd AD. But Hillarys mild gun control policies didnt hurt here in the election at all. Note that about half of American voters are \*in favor of mild gun controls. \* When did “mild gun control” become a catch phrase? Is that similar to “somewhat pregnant”? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/78 "2016-12-14T20:40:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hillary supports the Australian buy-back program, which was not voluntary. No, that is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/79 "2016-12-14T20:40:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > mild gun controls Just curious, how do you define “mild gun controls”? For example, I think that Utah has fairly mild gun controls. Or Arizona, or Montana. I suspect that lots of Democrats think Washington DC had “mild gun controls” before _Heller_. Where along that spectrum are you? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/80 "2016-12-14T20:42:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > “Australian style” wasn’t voluntary. > . And she didnt support that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628.md?page=5)