# It's official: Hillary lost MI, PA, WI by less than the Jill Stein vote in those states **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 13, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628 "2016-12-13T18:26:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/161 "2016-12-16T15:37:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Taken out of context. Hillary supported _voluntary_ buy back programs. Tat’s no what they did in Australia. Voluntary buyback programs are even stupider than Australian style buyback programs They accomplish nothing but wasting tax dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/162 "2016-12-16T15:41:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: > > From the rest of the article:_“It was an unforced error that she will never hear the last of. From how Clinton phrased her answer, though, it’s pretty clear that she was thinking of a voluntary buyback. She compared it to Obama’s “Cash for Clunkers” program and cited voluntary programs done in various cities.”_ > > Look, I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd AD. But Hillarys mild gun control policies didnt hurt here in the election at all. Note that about half of American voters are \*in favor of mild gun controls. \* “mild gun control”? Don’t we already have that? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/163 "2016-12-16T15:42:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > True, there may have been a few GOP voters who went to the polls to reluctantly vote for Trump due to worries about Hillary’s positions. Do note that Trump is no friend to gun owners, having supported the same sort of controls Clinton wanted. I’ve been telling my gun owner friends this exact thing for a long time and they keep pointing to that empty seat on the supreme court. Trump may not nominate someone because of their position on guns but he is more likely to nominate someone who just happens to be less hostile to guns than whoever Hillary would appoint. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/164 "2016-12-16T15:49:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > For the nth time, it was clearly just bad wording. As cited before “\*“It was an unforced error that she will never hear the last of. From how Clinton phrased her answer, though, it’s pretty clear that she was thinking of a voluntary buyback. She compared it to Obama’s “Cash for Clunkers” program and cited voluntary programs done in various cities.”” > \* Nominating her was an unforced error but we still have to live with the fallout and consequences of that mistake. I think her “unforced error” was more of a Freudian slip. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/165 "2016-12-16T15:56:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, what you are saying is the the Democrats should ignore the half of the country that wants some form of gun control, in order to chase a few moderates? Yes because the rabid anti-gun folks will never vote Republican and can’t stay away from the pols because it causes physical pain t them when a Republican wins. > [@](#): > > As can bee seen here, hundreds of thousands abandoned her as she wasnt liberal enuf. Well, she should get more liberal on that other stuff, no more sucking up to plutocats and big money who recovered from the 2008 crash within a year or two wile telling us we can’t afford to make college more affordable for middle class Americans ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/166 "2016-12-16T16:06:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Has there ever been (in modern times) a presidential candidate, not a president up for re-election, who went into the primaries in such a fashion as HRC did? That is, with everyone assuming the nomination was hers for the taking? The only other person I can think of is-- HRC in 2008 when Obama came out of “nowhere” just like Bernie did in 2016. I have to think that part of the reason people disliked her was the sense of entitlement. But when it comes down to it, was that her fault or the party’s fault? I don’t think HRC campaigned very well, but it was the party that put her up on a pedestal in the first place, no? > > People used to say that the Republicans always gave the nomination to whoever’s “turn” it was, but there was always a tough fight from the beginning, regardless. Republicans fall in line, Democrats fall in love. Disliked as she was, the party faithful loved her at the start like no one else! There was always some disagreement within the Republican party over whose turn it was. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/167 "2016-12-16T16:09:09Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > So, Trump’s regime will make these sad people happy again? He’ll make college affordable, institute universal healthcare & magically cause excellent jobs to appear for all high school grads? > > The Democratic party hasn’t been perfect but the gullible fools who expect Strong Man Trump the save them will be disappointed. Probably not, but don’t underestimate the value of being able to say “fuck you” to people who have been disappointing you for decades. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/168 "2016-12-16T19:19:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Tat’s no what they did in Australia. > . Yes, and she wasnt in favor of Australian style gun confiscation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/169 "2016-12-16T19:22:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Democrats will end up throwing every other issue and several elections under the bus over the gun issue until they realize its an explicit constitutional right. Something the right to abortion is not. SCOTUS disagrees with you about Abortion. And SCOTUS also has said that moderate gun control laws are within the 2nd Ad. So, the Dems should ignore the 50% of the American public who vote Democratic and are in favor of some sort of gun control, to chase Gun lovers who will always, 100% vote GOp no matter what? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/170 "2016-12-16T19:31:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > SCOTUS disagrees with you about Abortion. For now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/171 "2016-12-16T19:42:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But at the same time, I don’t know that you can make the claim that the second amendment is more restricted than the first. Well, its apples and oranges but if we applied First amendment standards of review to the second amendment, most gun laws would fail. The supreme court has avoided articulating a standard of review for the second amendment but many constitutional experts think that the same or similar standard would be appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/172 "2016-12-16T19:49:23Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Jill Stein was irrelevant. Hillary lost because she ran the stupidest electoral campaign in history. Terrified for some reason that Trump would win the popular vote while she won the electoral college (who the fuck cared if Trump won the popular vote?) she concentrated her campaign on states that didn’t matter while ignoring those that did. > > [Cite](http://www.thewrap.com/hillary-clinton-spent-on-states-trump-popular-vote/) > > Really, her campaign should be studied by future politicians as a lesson on what not to do if you want to win an election. Hrmm. What do New York and California have that Michigan does not? What could it be? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/173 "2016-12-16T19:50:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you consider Iran a “nuclear power”? Only if it helps his argument. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/174 "2016-12-16T20:02:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and she wasnt in favor of Australian style gun confiscation. That’s only because she was too ignorant of gun control issues to know wtf she was talking about. Because she either had no clue wtf Australia’s buyback program was and she was just saying shit that would sound good to an anti-gun crowd (which I believe is the case) or she actually was signaling that she would confiscate guns. The fact that she would support a voluntary gun buyback program just reinforces the notion that she is fucking clueless about guns but decided to make it a central part of her primary campaign because it was the only issue where she could get to the left of Bernie Sanders. And in the process she probably alienated more than the margin she lost by in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Florida. Were there other things that could have saved her campaign? Sure!!! It was death by a thousand cuts. All of them self inflicted and any one of them would could have made the difference between winning and losing to a bobblehead. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/175 "2016-12-16T20:11:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > SCOTUS disagrees with you about Abortion. Really? Where do they say that abortion is an explicit constitutional right? > **[Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/explicit)** > > The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years! The second amendment is right there in the constitution. It is one of the enumerated rights in the bill of rights. The right to an abortion is based on a “penumbra” I happen to be moderately pro-choice but as a lawyer, Roe v. Wade is a horribly written and rationalized opinion. I don’t know any lawyer that read the opinion and thought it wasn’t a result oriented decision. > [@](#): > > And SCOTUS also has said that moderate gun control laws are within the 2nd Ad. “nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms” This does not mean that moderate gun control laws are within the 2nd amendment. If the stuff Hillary wants is “mild” then this stuff is nowhere near “moderate” But yes, the second amendment like all rights are subject to restrictions. > [@](#): > > So, the Dems should ignore the 50% of the American public who vote Democratic and are in favor of some sort of gun control, to chase Gun lovers who will always, 100% vote GOp no matter what? :dubious: No, they should ignore the 5% of Democrats who really give a shit about guns but will vote Democrat every time anyway in order to placate gun lovers who will probably vote Republican if they can be bothered to vote at all. Staying out of gun control is a form of gun nut voter suppression. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/176 "2016-12-16T20:13:38Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Certainly not for the DNC, and I can’t think of a GOP candidate who was not a sitting President or Vice-President who was assured of the nomination; even with Reagan, who ultimately swept both the primary and main election, was at first seriously contested by George H.W. Bush (who actually was slightly ahead in early straw polls) despite strong party support. > > Part of the problem was no doubt the perception that progressive Democrats (with whom Clinton elected to brand herself with despite being fairly politically middle of the road and late to the table for many progressive causes like same sex marriage) were more interested in the needs of minorities and marginalized groups than middle class working Americans, and so a lot of the support for Trump was based on a rejection of perceived “political correctness” was clearly an emotional appeal for attention, which the Clinton campaign didn’t help by essentially ignoring many working class states that are historically assumed to vote Democratic, which she also failed to appeal to the “Bernie” liberals who were legitimately concerned about corporate influence in government because of her own fundraising and personal connections to Wall Street banks. She ran assuming her suburban and urban base would be sufficient to carry her without even shooting for a national “mandate” by all voters in what at least appeared to be a sense of entitlement and/or disconnection from the concerns of working class voters. > > Clinton was legitimately more experienced in governance (regardless of your estimation of her performance) than anyone else running from any party, and at least would have been a competent administrator (she’d certainly be taking security briefings and consulting with the State Department before taking calls from foreign leaders), but she was at best marginally appealing to the American public, and not with sufficient broad appeal to carry the Electoral College distribution. No matter what you personally think of Hillary Clinton’s performance, politics, or proposed policies, she was just a terrible candidate to present given public perception, and it is the public that (effectively) elects the President, even if not by direct public vote. > > Stranger Quoted for truth. Hillary was a horrible candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/177 "2016-12-16T21:03:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Probably not, but don’t underestimate the value of being able to say “fuck you” to people who have been disappointing you for decades. It may taste a bit sour in their mouths when they find out who’s _really_ going to get fucked by the Trump administration. (In their tax bills if nothing else.) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/178 "2016-12-16T21:48:19Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well god forbid your fetish be infringed on in even the slightest way. Fuck the gays, fuck the pregnant rape victims, fuck the victims of police violence, fuck the transgender people who just want acceptance, fuck the newspapers who might want to cover the president in a less-than-positive way, fuck literally any other criterion, as long as you’re allowed to buy literally any gun you want under literally any conditions, and the candidate who made vague, hand-wavey gestures towards maybe appointing supreme court justices who don’t think the 2nd amendment should mean guns should be easier to buy and use than _cars_ gets beat, you’re happy! > > Single issue voters bug me enough when the single issue is literally “I want to end the mass murder of babies”. Even then it’s foolhardy to pretend that that one issue trumps everything else. But when the single issue is “I really like guns” (or, alternatively, “I have insane fantasies about using my semi-automatic to overthrow a tyrannical government armed with F-35s and Tanks and everyone else needs to indulge those fantasies, regardless the cost”), and you’re willing to overlook _everything else_ for the sake of that… What should I take away from that? We’ve kicked this around and decided to mod-note it, BPC. Please don’t attack other posters or imply they derive any form of gratification from their political beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/179 "2016-12-17T15:20:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …she is fucking clueless about guns but decided to make it a central part of her primary campaign because it was the only issue where she could get to the left of Bernie Sanders. Whatever one’s view on guns, this IMO is manifestly true. Because Clinton was an inherently weak candidate she struggled against even Bernie Sanders and had to find some issue to get to the left of him with the Democratic base. His background in a quirky, very liberal but pro-gun, state seemed to offer that tactical opportunity. A better candidate with magnetism could have stuck more to an electability argument and not gone as far to the left to beat him. But she had to pander, with a gun position that is a turn off for a much bigger number of general election voters than the number who would be turned off if you simply didn’t make an issue of somebody like Sanders not being anti-gun enough. So while the merits and politics of the issue play a role, some of it on every issue comes back to Hillary’s basic lack of appeal personally, an inherently weak candidate with a tendency to ‘miraculously’ be beaten by or seriously struggle v candidates ‘coming out of nowhere’ (Obama, Sanders, Trump). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628/180 "2016-12-17T16:19:01Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Single issue voters bug me enough when the single issue is literally “I want to end the mass murder of babies”. Even then it’s foolhardy to pretend that that one issue trumps everything else. But when the single issue is “I really like guns” (or, alternatively, “I have insane fantasies about using my semi-automatic to overthrow a tyrannical government armed with F-35s and Tanks and everyone else needs to indulge those fantasies, regardless the cost”), and you’re willing to overlook _everything else_ for the sake of that… What should I take away from that? You should take away that compromising on _that_ issue will give you the chance to win on “everything else” – and that you seem willing to overlook “everything else” for the sake of backing a candidate who rubs those single-issue voters the wrong way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-hillary-lost-mi-pa-wi-by-less-than-the-jill-stein-vote-in-those-states/774628.md?page=10)