# It's official: Kerry/Edwards 2004. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783 "2004-07-06T13:59:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/21 "2004-07-06T17:11:33Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > Joe Kennedy took care of the rest. Puh-leeze… Anyway, **elucidator** , I second what **RTF** says. That’s an excellent post, and losing by playing not to lose in 2002 is probably what I’ll always remember of Gephardt. ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/22 "2004-07-06T17:17:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Puh-leeze… Eh? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/23 "2004-07-06T17:37:59Z")
I took that as a claim that he rigged the election. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/24 "2004-07-06T17:39:24Z")
Finally the Democrats do the right thing! Someone with charisma on the ticket. After Gore, Leiberman, and Kerry, they finally realized the presidential election is not a Jeopardy! game. I’ll bet the party leadership were trying to recruit that Ken whatshisname for the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/25 "2004-07-06T17:48:28Z")
So John Kerry and John Edwards are running for president. Is anyone else thinking what I’m thinking? Evil! Pure and simple from the eighth dimension! ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/26 "2004-07-06T17:50:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I took that as a claim that he rigged the election. He absolutely rigged the election. J. Kennedy bought thousands of votes for his son, who still only managed to squeak by Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/27 "2004-07-06T17:59:14Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > I would guess that’s all it was. The precednent they keep citing is JFK picking Johnson in '60, a guy he didn’t like at all. Joe Kennedy took care of the rest. Well let us not forget the all-star teams of Reagan and Bush I (voodoo economic) and McKinley and Roosevelt (that damned cowboy). Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards may not be blood brothers and buddies forever, but they strike me as a well balanced team for the campaign, with one providing _gravatas_ and nuance and the other gleefully beating the President and his gang of merry men about the head and shoulders for the next four months. I give it about 15 more minutes before the CREP and its running dogs run up the banner that the Dems are running a New England liberal and a trial lawyer – all the GOP phobias on a single ticket. This team has a fair chance of winning the election. They have been throughly vetted so I don’t expect any closest skeletons. If elected (my fervent hope) the problems of actually governing with a chaotic world and a hostile House of Representatives and a teetering Supreme Court could be overwhelming. I am willing to face those problems when they come. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/28 "2004-07-06T18:02:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Evil! Pure and simple from the eighth dimension! Ha! John Bigboote for Secretary of Defense. Attorney General John Smallberries. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/29 "2004-07-06T18:02:25Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > He absolutely rigged the election. J. Kennedy bought thousands of votes for his son, who still only managed to squeak by Nixon. I think I _might_ just need a cite for that. The claim as I usually hear it (which isn’t to say believe it) is that he gave JFK votes in Chicago that helped him win Illinois- which he didn’t need to win the election anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/30 "2004-07-06T18:21:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think I _might_ just need a cite for that. The claim as I usually hear it (which isn’t to say believe it) is that he gave JFK votes in Chicago that helped him win Illinois- which he didn’t need to win the election anyway. [www.ytedk.com/jfk.htm#president](http://www.ytedk.com/jfk.htm#president) Kennedy’s Electoral College majority was 303 to 219. **The winning margin was provided by the state of Illinois,** where in the eleventh hour, the votes that came in from Cook County’s mob-dominated West Side put Jack over the top. “Actually, and this goes without saying, the presidency was really stolen in Chicago, without a question, by the Democratic machine,” recalled mobster Mickey Cohen. “I know that certain people in the Chicago organization knew that they had to get John Kennedy in.” In the weeks before his inauguration, Jack began interviewing candidates for more than seventy key posts in the new administration. At one point he complained to his father, “Jesus Christ, this one wants that, that one wants this. Goddamn it, you can’t satisfy any of these people. I don’t know what I’m going to do about it all.” Joe Kennedy replied, “Jack, if you don’t want the job, you don’t have to take it. _ **They’re still counting votes up in Cook County.** _” (And holy shit, read the whole page if you have time. I was wrong- Joe K. bought his kid a lot more than votes.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/31 "2004-07-06T18:40:54Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > Kennedy’s Electoral College majority was 303 to 219. **The winning margin was provided by the state of Illinois,** Illinois had 27 electoral votes. Subtract those from Kennedy and add them to Nixon, and **JFK still wins by a margin of 276 to 246**. I checked that before I posted earlier. I’ll try and read more of the page later, but it does note that “A shift of 4,480 votes in Illinois _and 25,000 in Texas_ would have given Nixon the presidency,” as well as accusing Republicans of vote-stealing of their own in Illinois. > [@](#): > > “Actually, and this goes without saying, the presidency was really stolen in Chicago, without a question, by the Democratic machine,” recalled mobster Mickey Cohen. “I know that certain people in the Chicago organization knew that they had to get John Kennedy in.” And if you can’t trust the mob for reliable historical information, who can you trust? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/32 "2004-07-06T19:09:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I wonder when we’ll again have a serious presidential candidate of lower-class origins? From Edwards’ bio: > [@](#): > > There John learned the values of hard work and perseverance from his father, Wallace, who worked in the textile mills for 36 years, and from his mother, Bobbie, who ran a shop and worked at the post office. That seems lower class to me. Especially paired with “John became the first person in his family to attend college”. He’s rich now only because he earned it. ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/33 "2004-07-06T19:20:26Z")
All due respect, **Marley,** you asked for a valid cite and I gave you one; if your wish was to dispute whatever info I presented, that’s your perogative. But my original point was, Joe Kennedy took care of it in 1960. Among other things (all of which are detailed in the aforementioned article, and, I’d be willing to bet, quite a few others): -He regularly paid off newpaper and magazine publishers, including Time’s Henry Luce, who was instrumental in delivering a hugely influential front-page cover story on JFK in 1960 -He bought politicians who pledged to help Jack’s campaign -His former partnership with the mobster Sam Giancana bought him the crucial 95%-Protestant West Virginia primary -He bought the Catholic Church in the person of one Cardinal Cushing: \*One of the couriers told author Peter Maas how it worked. . . if Boston area churches had collected $950,000 on a particular Sunday from collections, Joe would write a check for $1 million to the diocese, deduct it as a charitable contribution, and receive the $950,000 in cash. Thus, in this example, the church got a contribution of $50,000, Joe could deduct the entire amount on his income tax, and he could use the money to pay off politicians without fear that it would be traced. “The cash is untraceable,” Maas said. “Part of the money goes to the diocese. He gets a contribution from Joe Kennedy for more than what the cash is. It’s brilliant. Nobody can trace the money.” In 1966, Cushing admitted that he had played a role in making payoffs to ministers. He told Hubert Humphrey, **“I’ll tell you who elected Jack Kennedy. It was his father, Joe, and me, right here in this room.”** Cushing explained that he and Joe decided which Protestant ministers should receive “contributions” of $100 to $500. As Cushing described the tactic, “It’s good for the church, it’s good for the preacher, and it’s good for the candidate.”\* (“Rigged the election”? I would think by November it was practically academic! - Moody B.) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/34 "2004-07-06T19:25:34Z")
I love how the Republicans are totally flustered by this fairly obvious choice, one which they could have been preparing to attack for months. Edwards is too inexperienced to be vice-President! (well he’s got more national experience than GW did to be PRESIDENT) He’s too inexperienced period! (GW again, and gee, wasn’t it last week that Kerry was TOO experienced in Washington? Is there some magical middle range of experience that is okay with you guys? If you were happy with just a stint as Texas’ hood ornament, can you really bitch all that much?) McCain was the first choice, but he supports Bush! (A republican senator supports Bush! News at eleven!) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/35 "2004-07-06T19:26:34Z")
And this all has… what to do with this thread? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/36 "2004-07-06T19:30:30Z")
I love Edwards. This is a great pick. He’s the best orator I’ve heard since Mario Cuomo. It’s nice to see the Dems play to their populist base for once instead of running away from it. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/37 "2004-07-06T19:57:28Z")
I see that the [AP story posted by ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040706_955.html) describes Edwards as “the rich former trial lawyer and rookie senator…” Way to pick up on the Republican talking points, AP. (“Liberal media” my ass…) ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/38 "2004-07-06T20:39:34Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > All due respect, Marley, you asked for a valid cite and I gave you one; if your wish was to dispute whatever info I presented, that’s your perogative. He did dispute the info; he noted that Illinois alone did not provide the margin of victory. Also, while you may call that a “valid cite”, if you look around that site that you linked to, you will see that it is extremely, extremely partisan and proposes all sort of conspiracies and criminal events involving the Kennedy family. So, I was suggest that a healthy amount of skepticism is in order. Around here, “someone on some internet web site said it” does not constitute proof. [Here](http://slate.msn.com/id/91350/) is a more balanced discussion of the 1960 election. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/39 "2004-07-06T21:05:10Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > All due respect, **Marley,** you asked for a valid cite and I gave you one; if your wish was to dispute whatever info I presented, that’s your perogative. All due respect, but it’s quite a stretch to call some lunatic’s paranoid website a “valid cite.” That guy draws all his material from a couple of conspiracy books that just barely squeak into the nonfiction category: he’s got no primary cites, nothing we can refer to if we want to check his facts. If it’s a stretch to call that a cite, it’s perilously close to falsehood to say that Kennedy “absolutely rigged the election,” given the paucity of evidence to support this conclusion. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783/40 "2004-07-06T21:29:10Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I see that the [AP story posted by ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040706_955.html) describes Edwards as “the rich former trial lawyer and rookie senator…” > > Way to pick up on the Republican talking points, AP. > > (“Liberal media” my ass…) Well, isn’t “rich former trial lawyers and rookie senator” a rather valid description of Mr. Edwards, whether you like the words “rich” and “rookie” or not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-kerry-edwards-2004/253783.md?page=3)