# It's official: the Catholic Church is nuts! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537 "2022-02-15T15:27:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/81 "2022-02-16T16:48:13Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I guess you were being ironic/funny. I guess I was _attempting_ to be ironic/funny. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/82 "2022-02-16T17:21:19Z")
Nah, you were ok. I’m pathologically literal-minded. It’s a curse. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/83 "2022-02-16T19:43:24Z")
What a mess. The Pope should retroactively declare all of the baptisms valid, if he can. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/84 "2022-02-16T20:25:18Z")
And yet, [Edgardo Mortara’s baptism](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/01/some-catholics-are-defending-the-kidnapping-of-a-jewish-boy/551240/) was perfectly legal. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/85 "2022-02-16T20:44:45Z")
Or declare all of them _invalid_! Zero-based sacraments, that’s the ticket! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/86 "2022-02-16T21:14:43Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > This probably isn’t the thread for it, but there isn’t really any reason to believe that St. John the Baptist was _actually_ a Baptist, is there? In case you aren’t joking (as @ThelmaLou assumes) and for anyone genuinely curious: The term simply refers to him as being a guy who made a big deal about baptizing people. It has nothing to do with the denomination. Baptists do tend to get their idea of how baptisms should be held by what little scripture we have about John’s practices (e.g. why a sprinkling isn’t enough), but they aren’t following John’s practices. John baptized in the Jewish tradition, not a Christian one where it represents “dying with Christ.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/87 "2022-02-16T21:20:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It has nothing to do with the denomination. Disappointing. I was hoping a yet-to-be-found set of scrolls would one day introduce us to another cousin, Saint Gary the Episcopalian. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/88 "2022-02-16T23:20:18Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I laughed and explained that atheists do not baptize. (we don’t, right?) Did you ever spray her with the hose when she was little? If so, you’re good. (If not, what you do is you get yourself some black masking tape, and you tape down the handle on the sprayer thingy that extends from the sink. Be sure the nozzle is aimed toward a person who is standing in front, then ask her to get you a glass of water. Hilarity, er, salvation, will ensue). ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/89 "2022-02-17T02:14:26Z")
[![](https://www.questionablecontent.net/comics/2070.png) ](https://www.questionablecontent.net/comics/2070.png) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/90 "2022-02-17T03:33:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@susan](#): > > > > It’s my understanding that LDS performs posthumous conversions, so there should be a mechanism for rebaptizing post-hoc. > > The LDS is very much NOT Roman Catholicism. Very well. So all these lost souls can get themselves rebaptized as Mormons, even the already-deceased ones. This could even come with perks. If they’re righteous enough, they can get a whole planet of their own to be a god over. > [@RitterSport](#): > > No, wait, He’s actually a wave. No, a particle. Ugh, I think it depends on the experiment. So all these baptisms in question here were just fine as long as nobody noticed. This is consistent with the theory, noted several posts above, that all these baptisms were valid as long as they didn’t know they weren’t. > [@kayaker](#): > > It turned into a heated argument with my sister repeatedly asking me what if I was wrong, and my daughter died, and then she’d burn in hell or something. Leibniz baptisms! > [@BigT](#): > > John baptized in the Jewish tradition . . . I was never even aware that Jews ever had anything like a baptism ritual! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/91 "2022-02-17T03:38:06Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I was never even aware that Jews ever had anything like a baptism ritual! Did it never occur to you to wonder WHAT John the Baptist was up to? Confession: it never did to me. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/92 "2022-02-17T03:41:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Did it never occur to you to wonder WHAT John the Baptist was up to? > > Confession: it never did to me. I understood (at least I think I understood) that JtheB was into dunking people. I never got curious enough to wonder where he got that idea from. I had never heard of it being a Jewish ritual. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/93 "2022-02-17T03:50:47Z")
Note earlier post: > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Well, Jews have the [_mikveh_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh) (or _mikvah_ ), which Christians turned into baptism. When John the Baptist immersed Jesus in the river, the river was serving as a _mikveh_ , which was fine, dandy, and kosher, even today. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/94 "2022-02-17T03:52:11Z")
> The practice of baptism emerged from Jewish ritualistic practices during the [Second Temple Period](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple_Period), out of which figures such as [John the Baptist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist) emerged. For example, various texts in the [Dead Sea Scrolls](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls) (DSS) corpus at [Qumran](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran) describe ritual practices involving washing, bathing, sprinkling, and immersing. One example of such a text is a DSS known as the [Rule of the Community](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Community), which says “And by the compliance of his soul with all the laws of God his flesh is cleansed by being sprinkled with cleansing waters and being made holy with the waters of repentance.”[[34]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#cite_note-36) The [Mandaeans](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeans), who are followers of [John the Baptist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist), practice frequent full immersion baptism ( _Masbuta_ ) as a ritual of purification.[[35]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#cite_note-auto-37) According to [Mandaean sources](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haran_Gawaita), they left the [Jordan Valley](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Valley) in the 1st Century CE.[[36]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#cite_note-38) [John the Baptist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist), who is considered a forerunner to Christianity, used baptism as the central sacrament of his messianic movement.[[37]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#cite_note-39) From the Wikipedia article on baptism. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/95 "2022-02-17T04:10:48Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > not even the most rule-obsessed Orthodox would retroactively invalidate a conversion due to some mistake in the ritual. I know of someone who dunked herself (in a Jewish ritual mikveh) a second time because she was wearing an IUD when she was dunked during her conversion, and that meant she maybe wasn’t completely naked. Or something like that. A Lubuvitcher friend told me about it more than two decades ago. And I don’t know if it really invalidated her conversion, but she apparently felt she should do it again, just to be safe. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/96 "2022-02-17T04:24:59Z")
Very interesting! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/97 "2022-02-17T09:13:44Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Very well. So all these lost souls can get themselves rebaptized as Mormons, even the already-deceased ones. This could even come with perks. If they’re righteous enough, they can get a whole planet of their own to be a god over. Only if said soul was in life a man with at least one wife. The LDS afterlife is very sexist and hetero-normative. > [@Senegoid](#): > > I was never even aware that Jews ever had anything like a baptism ritual! Jewish “baptism” is the [mikveh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh) bath, which is a full body immersion to induce ritual purity. It’s different that Christian baptism in that it’s not a one-and-done. From a ritual perspective, it can be more like Catholic confession-and-pennance in some ways, in that it wipes away accumulated ritual impurity, but I hasten to add that those two things are still very different. > [@Senegoid](#): > > I understood (at least I think I understood) that JtheB was into dunking people. I never got curious enough to wonder where he got that idea from. I had never heard of it being a Jewish ritual. It’s not like Jews discuss the details of their practices with non-Jews a lot. The details aren’t top secret, it’s just assumed most _goyim_ won’t be interested. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I know of someone who dunked herself (in a Jewish ritual mikveh) a second time because she was wearing an IUD when she was dunked during her conversion, and that meant she maybe wasn’t completely naked. Or something like that. A Lubuvitcher friend told me about it more than two decades ago. And I don’t know if it really invalidated her conversion, but she apparently felt she should do it again, just to be safe. Nothing is supposed to come between a person using a mikveh and the waters. That sounds simple on its face, but the result is that there’s all sorts of nitpicky rulings on this and it’s possible that for some groups that could be an issue. Again, a lot depends on the particular community’s interpretation of the rules. (As an another example, there is, apparently, a whole bunch of arguing about hair and the mikveh) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/98 "2022-02-17T12:44:49Z")
Yes, she decided it was like having a stray hair between her and the water. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/99 "2022-02-17T12:47:23Z")
I didn’t think water regularly got up in there, that far anyway?? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/100 "2022-02-17T13:48:46Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Nothing is supposed to come between a person using a mikveh and the waters. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I didn’t think water regularly got up in there, that far anyway?? That’s what I’m wondering. You remove all _external_ barriers, like nail polish, contact lenses-- but do you remove dentures, for example? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes, she decided it was like having a stray hair between her and the water. But hair isn’t a barrier. Your hair goes in the water, too. In fact, there will be a woman observer to make sure all of a woman’s long hair goes under during immersion. I assume it’s the same when a man with long hair/beard immerses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537.md?page=6)