# It's official: the Catholic Church is nuts! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537 "2022-02-15T15:27:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/101 "2022-02-17T14:35:50Z")
Hair that’s attached to you goes under, but my understanding was that hairs that you have shed need to be removed. I’ve never personally dunked in a mikvah, and I’m very far from an expert. This is a story a friend, who was a regular user of mikvahs, told me. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/102 "2022-02-17T15:22:28Z")
According to [this site](https://coffeeshoprabbi.com/2013/11/13/mikveh-for-conversion/), you DO remove dentures before immersing. 😮 > In the _mikveh_ , you want nothing to separate you from the water. Therefore before entering the _mikveh_ , we remove all clothing, all jewelry (even wedding rings) and all medical appliances (dentures, contact lenses, etc) as well as cosmetics and fingernail polish. We enter the _mikveh_ the way we were born: naked. I get the reasoning that goes with “naked as the day you were born,” but it’s not like the water goes in your mouth. 🤷🏽 I started researching IUDs and the mikveh, but got very bogged down in (to me) legality. (No disrespect to those who follow those rules.) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/103 "2022-02-17T15:29:12Z")
Seems like you should shave most of your hair and all of your pubic hair, if it’s meant to be “as the day you were born”. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/104 "2022-02-17T15:33:57Z")
Actually, it does; you’re supposed to leave your mouth open. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/105 "2022-02-17T16:05:44Z")
When I went in the mikvah, my mouth and eyes were not screwed tightly shut. You don’t open your mouth and take in water or open your eyes under water. > Make sure also to relax your eyes and mouth; water should not go in them, but they should not be clenched, and neither should your hands. > > [Cite](https://theedencenter.com/expect-go-mikveh/) ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/106 "2022-02-17T16:16:35Z")
Wait. So you need to be buck-naked while getting baptized? Ignorance fought! Now, do they still do those mass baptisms outdoors in creeks and rivers somewhere? 🤪 I saw that in a Coen Bros film, but everyone was fully clothed: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6PUDd7LBb88/hqdefault.jpg "O' BROTHER- DELMAR'S BAPTISM") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PUDd7LBb88) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/107 "2022-02-17T16:31:00Z")
For a Jewish ritual cleansing, yes. Note that some Jews not only cleanse themselves in a mikvah, but will also cleanse a new pot before using it. Where the Bible says, “then wash in water” (Exodus 30:20, 40:12, Leviticus 6:21, 11:32, 14:8, 15:5, and many others) Jews interpret that to mean dunking in a mikvah. The typical times for people to dunk themselves, other than upon conversion, is when a woman is done with her period, or after a man has a wet dream. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/108 "2022-02-17T16:33:57Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Did it never occur to you to wonder WHAT John the Baptist was up to? I kinda assumed it was his own nutty idea. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/109 "2022-02-17T17:12:20Z")
The Wiki article linked to says he was an Essene, a Jewish sect a distant third behind the Pharisees and Sadducees. Josephus said they practiced among other things, daily immersion. The Dead Sea Scrolls are held to be Essene texts by most scholars. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/110 "2022-02-17T18:42:43Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > all medical appliances (dentures, contact lenses, etc) It seems reasonable to consider an IUD a medical appliance, no? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > The typical times for people to dunk themselves, other than upon conversion, is when a woman is done with her period But this makes the IUD removal/replacement seem unlikely (isn’t it a medical procedure?). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/111 "2022-02-17T19:51:29Z")
You wouldn’t remove a pacemaker. I really think it’s because it’s an “external” thing that you “wear”, like dentures. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/112 "2022-02-17T20:00:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You wouldn’t remove a pacemaker. God will keep you alive. I’m sure of it. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/113 "2022-02-17T20:09:24Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > If they’re righteous enough, they can get a whole planet of their own to be a god over. I might have enough right stuff to get a medium asteroid. Not as big as Ceres or Vesta, sure. But one of those smaller ones like Sylvia or Victoria. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/114 "2022-02-17T20:40:44Z")
Maybe your planet can be near the planet of the Little Prince. That would be cool. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/115 "2022-02-17T21:25:54Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > But this makes the IUD removal/replacement seem unlikely (isn’t it a medical procedure?). Yeah, you can’t remove your own IUD. It’s not like a tampon. * * * This whole section of the discussion was prompted by this post: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I know of someone who dunked herself (in a Jewish ritual mikveh) a second time because she was wearing an IUD when she was dunked during her conversion, and that meant she maybe wasn’t completely naked. Or something like that. A Lubuvitcher friend told me about it more than two decades ago. And I don’t know if it really invalidated her conversion, but she apparently felt she should do it again, just to be safe. ISTM that a woman converting to the pretty-darned-orthodox Lubavitcher ([Chabad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad)) group would have had a thorough discussion with the Rebbe about birth control before the conversion, and he would have advised her. This group is not into birth control; they have big families, and have sex at a woman’s most fertile time. A woman member of this sect who regularly visited the mikvah monthly would not be using an IUD. The question of the legitimacy of the conversion might have arisen if she had the IUD removed BEFORE the mikvah visit and discovered later there had been some residual bleeding. A woman visits the mikvah after her period and after seven days of absolutely no blood (which she checks with a tampon or white cloth). The reason for this is not the popular mis-conception (see what I did there? 🙂 ) about menstrual blood being “unclean,” but because anyone coming in contact with blood is _ritually_ impure. It’s not a female thing. If y’all will recall, Jesus sent people off to see the priests if they came in contact with a corpse or after he healed them. These are deep waters (I just can’t help myself), and I suggest the curious read the following article, because the subject is really too much to go into here. Anyhoo, @puzzlegal’s person might have been concerned not over hair but over blood and that’s why she wanted to dunk again. That makes sense. [https://www.sun-sentinel.com/florida-jewish-journal/fl-jjps-torah-0422-20150421-story.html](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/florida-jewish-journal/fl-jjps-torah-0422-20150421-story.html) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/116 "2022-02-17T21:39:46Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Anyhoo, @puzzlegal’s person might have been concerned not over hair but over blood No, it was definitely the IUD (or its “string”) and not blood. I assume this woman had her IUD pulled after she converted and married, because yes, it’s a very pro-baby sect. But all sorts of people (well, all sorts of Jews) choose to join Lubuvich, and they come from many different paths. And of course she wasn’t technically converting to Judaism, as Lubuvitch proselytizes among people who were born Jews but aren’t observant. I’m not sure why I remember the conversation as being about a conversion, maybe it was just ritual cleansing to join the community. (The guy who told me this also said the he used to dunk in a mikvah every morning after he became observant and before he was married and settled and had a job and stuff.) ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/117 "2022-02-17T22:02:11Z")
Well, I’m stumped. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/118 "2022-02-17T22:35:29Z")
What I remember from high school theology class from the late 1980s, Catholics are perfectly fine with baptisms done by other faiths, _as long as they follow the formula_, which IIRC was “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Interestingly enough, I recall the big deal being that some denominations didn’t invoke the entire Trinity, which invalidated it. I don’t recall there being any question about the “I”, although I suppose it was assumed that it was the priest doing it, so he’d automatically do the “I” part, since it’s part of _his_ role as the administrator of the sacraments. And FWIW, I was baptized in a Baptist church- full immersion, etc… but it followed the formula to a T, so I figure it’s good. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/119 "2022-02-18T21:37:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Maybe your planet can be near the planet of the Little Prince. That would be cool. That’s by Machiavelli, right? Great book! “And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. And would the rose have preferred to be feared?" 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2022, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537/120 "2022-02-19T01:41:38Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > That’s by Machiavelli, right? Great book! Machiavelli wrote The Prince. His son, Machiavelli Jr. (“Little Machiavelli”) wrote The Little Prince. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-official-the-catholic-church-is-nuts/959537.md?page=7)