# Its ok. The police were trying to shoot the autistic guy, they just hit the black guy by accident **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672 "2016-07-23T13:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/61 "2016-07-24T09:03:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. But if the officer shot the guy holding the truck, I’d be inclined to accept his explanation that he thought it was a gun. Very generous of you, I must say. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/62 "2016-07-24T09:22:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Noted. Now, let me ask you: does your acceptance of that explanation take into account that Mr. Kinsey had shouted at least once that Arnaldo had a toy truck and not a gun? And did you watch the video? Your question shows that you did not note, or did not understand, what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/63 "2016-07-24T10:11:55Z")
I simply cannot articulate how angry this and other incidents make me. I teach English here in Taiwan, and my students ask me to explain this to them. I never got it when I was living as a white male in America. If I got into an accident with someone else I had faith that the police would believe or disbelieve me equally. I never felt that the authorities were ones to be careful of. I trusted the social pact, that if you kept your nose clean, the system would take care of you. Living in Asian countries, it’s not like that. If I got into an argument with a native, who are the police going to arrest, without question? Who are the police going to suspect? Will the courts believe me? And I’m even higher on the pecking order of foreigners. A black African wouldn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of being believed. It makes me terribly ashamed of my native country not only those racist people out there, but also for us, those like me who didn’t believe the system was gamed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/64 "2016-07-24T10:30:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Very generous of you, I must say. Do you believe that this officer’s thought process was “Unarmed man with a toy truck, fuck that guy, I’m putting 3 bullets in 'em!” I’d say this is much more likely to be a case of inexcusable error in judgement, not confirming the presence of a weapon before shooting, than a callous decision to kill a person who is known to be no threat to anyone. I’ll add that this cop needs to be punished for his crime, and that the treatment of the two victims after the shooting was reprehensible as well. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/65 "2016-07-24T12:44:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > On the bright side, it seems that the North Miami police are open to hiring those with disabilities, given that they put a blind man on the SWAT team. Both he and his parter are deaf, too! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/66 "2016-07-24T13:08:29Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Do you believe that this officer’s thought process was “Unarmed man with a toy truck, fuck that guy, I’m putting 3 bullets in 'em!” And yet the question remains: why did they handcuff him and leave him bleeding for 20 min.? Why did he answer “I don’t know” when asked about the three shots? Why did the other officer–the one suspended without pay–issue conflicting statements apparently egregious enough to earn worse penalty than the shooter? I think he was trying to shoot both of them but botched it up so bad that he had to scrap the plan in the middle of it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/67 "2016-07-24T13:35:27Z")
Another[WTF shooting](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/22/atlanta-police-shooting-deravis-rogers-james-burns-murder-charge) that recently happened in Atlanta suggests that sometimes, perhaps a lot of the times, cops shoot innocent people because they believe everyone in their vicinity is a fair target. They shoot first, ask questions later, because actually protecting people is at the bottom of their priorities. > [@](#): > > On the day of the shooting, Burns had been called to an apartment complex after a report that a pedestrian was spotted looking into cars in a suspicious manner. Burns claims that when he arrived on the scene, a vehicle quickly pulled out of where it was parked, coming down the hill toward Burns’ car. > > In Burns’s statement of events, he moved his car to try to block Rogers by pulling sideways in front of it, but Rogers continued past in what Burns called an attempt to run him over. > > But in an investigation completed within several weeks of the incident that included review of dashcam footage, police found that Burns “had no provocation, no reason, to discharge his weapon”, according to Sgt Warren Pickard. They found that Burns was actually standing behind his own vehicle, not in immediate danger of being hit as he had claimed. > > **When asked by investigators why he chose to block Rogers’s car even though the radio report described a pedestrian and not a vehicle, Burns replied that he just thought “everyone in this area was of interest”.** > > Burns shot and killed Rogers through the passenger side window. It’s this broad brush thinking that basically assumes all black people are guilty of something until proven otherwise, combined with the overuse of lethal force and abandonment of anything remotely akin to descalation tactics, that is leading to unnecessary casualties at the hands of cops. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/68 "2016-07-24T13:38:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And yet the question remains: why did they handcuff him and leave him bleeding for 20 min.? > > Why did the other officer–the one suspended without pay–issue conflicting statements apparently egregious enough to earn worse penalty than the shooter? Are ranked officers covered by the union? Or are they considered management? Maybe they could suspend the commander easier than the officer. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/69 "2016-07-24T13:40:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The police were summoned by a 911 call in which the caller mistook the toy for a gun. > > Yes. But if the officer shot the guy holding the truck, I’d be inclined to accept his explanation that he thought it was a gun. Eh? a truck? I’d be inclined to accept the verdict of a jury on a serious charge. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/70 "2016-07-24T13:41:46Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Maybe we should start thinking about disarming the police??! No one who is trained properly would do this. It’s a selection and training issue. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/71 "2016-07-24T13:59:25Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Are ranked officers covered by the union? Or are they considered management? Maybe they could suspend the commander easier than the officer. I’d WAG in this case that the union specified Formal Procedures For Investigations After A Shooting, which includes suspension with pay, specific requirements for an investigation and hearing before any punishment, etc. But the union contract doesn’t (yet?) have a provision covering Commanding Officer Makes Shit Up Because Reasons. So, thankfully, at the very least the commander gets suspended this time. Police unions seem to be a big part of the problem, since they give power and legal authority to the Blue Wall Of Silence. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/72 "2016-07-24T14:54:13Z")
BTW good call on the Chief and DA in that Atlanta case. Reviewed the evidence, said “that was no threat”, canned him, charged him. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I will offer props to North Miami Mayor Smith Josephs and city councilmen Philippe Bien-Aime and Scott Galvin for their statements concerning the matter. All three have gone beyond the usual tepid language used and issued quite forceful condemnations, especially of the attempt to cover this up. > > If any of the three of them ever chance upon the Dope: good job, folks! Watch for the nasty attacks in the next election cycle over not having the backs of the police. Or at least for the police association/union to badmouth them over it at every opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/73 "2016-07-24T15:27:05Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No one who is trained properly would do this. > > It’s a selection and training issue. Are we willing to pay police enough that we can have meaningful selection criteria beyond “you willing? Not too dumb?”; are we willing to pay for effective, thorough training? Are we willing to pay for re-training current police? Are we willing to pay to recruit from non-traditional groups, so that the dangerous aspects of current culture doesn’t simply perpetuate itself? Unless we are, hand-waving these incidents away as "well, good training would fix that’ is just restating the problem without actually offering any kind of actual argument. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/74 "2016-07-24T15:27:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It’s also a lie. We can clearly hear Kinsey yelling that he is a counselor, that the other guy is his patient, that the guy has a toy truck in his hands… if we can hear that clearly on a cel phone video taken from further away than the police were, the police could hear it clearly too. > > Damn near the entire police statement appears to be lies, actually. In the cop’s defence, his ears were probably still ringing from shooting other people all day. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/75 "2016-07-24T15:33:20Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Are we willing to pay police enough that we can have meaningful selection criteria beyond “you willing? Not too dumb?”; are we willing to pay for effective, thorough training? Are we willing to pay for re-training current police? Are we willing to pay to recruit from non-traditional groups, so that the dangerous aspects of current culture doesn’t simply perpetuate itself? > > Unless we are, hand-waving these incidents away as "well, good training would fix that’ is just restating the problem without actually offering any kind of actual argument. You’d think the police would insist on it since it’s their asses getting hung to dry in the media and potentially their lives at stake if they make a bad shoot based on bad training. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/76 "2016-07-24T15:52:18Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Are we willing to pay police enough that we can have meaningful selection criteria beyond “you willing? Not too dumb?”; are we willing to pay for effective, thorough training? Are we willing to pay for re-training current police? Are we willing to pay to recruit from non-traditional groups, so that the dangerous aspects of current culture doesn’t simply perpetuate itself? > > Unless we are, hand-waving these incidents away as "well, good training would fix that’ is just restating the problem without actually offering any kind of actual argument. Would I be willing? Absolutely. If you go to a restaurant, and received half cooked, spoiled food, would you just accept it, and say, well, we don’t want to pay for training? No, you train people for the job they do. If they can’t be trained, then you fire them. If it requires paying them more to get a higher quality labor force, you do that. But then, I always vote for tax levies for police, fire, schools, and stuff, because I am willing to invest in my community to have it be a nice place to live. I am not sure what you mean be “non-traditional groups”, nor why we would have to pay more to recruit from them. There is the other argument, of course, that all taxes are evil, and that we should try to do this government thing on the cheap. There are consequences to that. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/77 "2016-07-24T16:04:29Z")
I’d like to see some psychological profiling to screen out job candidates who are inclined to make the “oopsies” like the one currently we’re talking about. You can train people all day, but some folks just shouldn’t be police officers. Like, with all the work that’s been done on implicit bias, it sure seems like someone could devise a test that gauges the bent of a subject’s unconscious, split-second decision-making. I would think that if someone has a “shoot first, ask questions later” mentality, you’d see certain signs with a rigorous examination. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/78 "2016-07-24T16:09:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Would I be willing? Absolutely. If you go to a restaurant, and received half cooked, spoiled food, would you just accept it, and say, well, we don’t want to pay for training? No, you train people for the job they do. If they can’t be trained, then you fire them. If it requires paying them more to get a higher quality labor force, you do that. But then, I always vote for tax levies for police, fire, schools, and stuff, because I am willing to invest in my community to have it be a nice place to live. This is the thing that people miss when we have these discussions. The restaurant cooks\*\* your\*\* food to perfection, it’s the guys in the back, next to the bathroom who receives substandard treatment. You don’t have to be willing, because it doesn’t personally effect you. Further when they complain about their food, “you” ignore them because the chef always provides excellent service to you and yours, so the complainers **must** be lying or did something to deserve it. Besides, these complainers are ruining your dinner and why can’t they just eat it and shut up? Now personally you may be the type of person who wouldn’t support unequal treatment of others, even if you’re doing ok and that’s great. Truth be told, this problem only gets solved when everyone works together, regardless of their standing. Unfortunately that doesn’t always seem the case, as too often people try to find any reason to downplay what those on the short end of the stick have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/79 "2016-07-24T16:25:03Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No one who is trained properly would do this. > > It’s a selection and training issue. No, it’s not, it’s an issue of police culture and especially the blue wall. If it was just a training issue, then the guy might have panicked and shot, but the fact that he handcuffed the guy and refused medical aid, and arrested the other guy, and that various other cops lied to cover for him goes far beyond that. If it was up to me, every one of the cops involved (including everyone making false statements) would be facing charges for a conspiracy to attempt murder, but in reality they’ll just get a couple of weeks of vacation, a sternly worded note, and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672/80 "2016-07-24T16:51:13Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > This is the thing that people miss when we have these discussions. The restaurant cooks\*\* your\*\* food to perfection, it’s the guys in the back, next to the bathroom who receives substandard treatment. You don’t have to be willing, because it doesn’t personally effect you. > > Further when they complain about their food, “you” ignore them because the chef always provides excellent service to you and yours, so the complainers **must** be lying or did something to deserve it. Besides, these complainers are ruining your dinner and why can’t they just eat it and shut up? > > Now personally you may be the type of person who wouldn’t support unequal treatment of others, even if you’re doing ok and that’s great. Truth be told, this problem only gets solved when everyone works together, regardless of their standing. Unfortunately that doesn’t always seem the case, as too often people try to find any reason to downplay what those on the short end of the stick have to say. Ignorance is an excuse. If I had never heard of, or had a way of being informed about unequal mistreatment, then I may continue on my merry way as long as I am treated fairly. I may have felt this way a couple decades ago, when I was younger, stupider, more selfish, and less informed. The police in my community are pretty good, for the few interactions I have had with them, and if they were my only information as to what a police interaction is usually like, then I may wonder what others are complaining about. Willful ignorance is not an excuse, once the inequality has been brought to my attention, I do not get any sort of enjoyment out of being treated fairly, if I know that others, who have done nothing to deserve sanction, are not being treated fairly. I suppose the restaurant analogy completely breaks down, when we realize we aren’t even talking about the same location, staff or management. Voting for my police levy, even going to city council meetings will do little, if anything to effect the police conduct on the other side of the country. Strangely, posting ramblings to a message board is probably the most effective thing I can do to help to work together to solve the problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-ok-the-police-were-trying-to-shoot-the-autistic-guy-they-just-hit-the-black-guy-by-accident/760672.md?page=5)