# It's our lifestyle! (Man walks woman on leash in mall) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 27, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979 "2015-05-27T19:59:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/181 "2015-06-01T19:53:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Because “Ew, GROSS!” is quite literally the single stupidest standard to use when determining the legality of a given action? Exactly this. It is absolutely ridiculous that I get arrested for taking a dump at the bus stop. I was careful not to splatter on any of the other people waiting with me yet they treated me like a monster. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/182 "2015-06-01T20:08:29Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > I don’t want to look at sexual fetishes in public … You already do. Every day, everywhere you go. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/183 "2015-06-01T20:30:31Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > You already do. Every day, everywhere you go. “EWWW!..Where?” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/184 "2015-06-01T20:39:54Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > Why should we accept giving someone the right to make fellow citizens nauseous by their actions? You could ban gay couples from holding hands in public by this logic. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/185 "2015-06-01T20:41:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > “EWWW!..Where?” I’m not telling you! Muahahahahahahaha!!! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/186 "2015-06-01T21:06:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > You could ban gay couples from holding hands in public by this logic. Forget gay couples, by that logic you could outlaw everything from open air fish markets to taking your dog for a walk. > [@Drunky Smurf](#): > > It is absolutely ridiculous that I get arrested for taking a dump at the bus stop. My vote for “Least Surprising Personal Revelation of the Year.” ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/187 "2015-06-01T21:28:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Because “Ew, GROSS!” is quite literally the single stupidest standard to use when determining the legality of a given action? Miller, I think you’re an attorney, correct? If so, tell me, in all seriousness, why public nudity and various explicit sexual acts are considered obscene in public and illegal? Is it because of _“eww, GROSS!”_ or is it for some other reason? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/188 "2015-06-01T22:23:21Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > Miller, I think you’re an attorney, correct? You know, there’s a lot of room for disagreement here without throwing insults around. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/189 "2015-06-01T23:30:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You know, there’s a lot of room for disagreement here without throwing insults around. [Danger](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REvmhBO99I4), Will Robinson, Danger! Doper with sense of humor does not compute! ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/190 "2015-06-01T23:39:56Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “At some level of abstraction” a human head is like a bowling ball is like the Moon. > > _In this particular case_, the whole point of using the “gays holding hands” analogy is to invoke the reason gays held hands in a time or place that such was disapproved of in public: that they were pointing out the hypocrisy of the disaprovers - who were only ‘shocked, shocked I say’ because of their own homophobia (concious or not); they would not express similar disapproval of hetero couples holding hands. Or they were holding hands as a show of affection. I hear gay people are capable of human emotions. And kinky people are too, even if they express them oddly. > [@](#): > > On the contrary, I simply cannot see how anyone possessing any awareness of public sentiment whatsoever could possibly for even a second think that a man walking a woman like a dog on a spiked collar in public would be at all likely to generate positive attention. I meant, at the very least, they thought “people at the mall will stare” and decided they didn’t mind. They may have thought “people at the mall will stare” and decided they wanted that. But I think it’s incorrect to assume they went to the mall in order to be stared at, which is an assumption some people seem to be making. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/191 "2015-06-02T00:48:12Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > Miller, I think you’re an attorney, correct? If so, tell me, in all seriousness, why public nudity and various explicit sexual acts are considered obscene in public and illegal? Is it because of _“eww, GROSS!”_ or is it for some other reason? IANAL But, I’m reasonably sure it’s “Eww gross! And sex is dirty and wrong!” Why, for so long, was it illegal for women to be topless but not for men? Oh, and I wouldn’t use the word “obscene” AIUI, that word has a precise meaning when it comes to legal matters. You can be charged with indecent exposure, public indecency etc without the words “obscene” or “obscenity” ever coming up. Finally, rather than reading your arguments and agreeing that fetishes should be illegal in public, I’m once again reminded how stupid laws on public nudity are. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/192 "2015-06-02T00:51:43Z")
If it were legal, would you wander about in public with your penis exposed Doc Cathode? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/193 "2015-06-02T00:53:41Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > I’m simply soliciting people’s opinion on where they draw the line as to what should be acceptable in public. You’ve alluded to where you draw the line and I’ve done the same. I think sexual fetishes should be considered obscene in public; you don’t. . . . So, if I’m a foot fetishist, and bare feet really turn me on…I should be banned from walking barefoot with my girlfriend on a public beach… But another couple, for whom feet are not in any way sexualized, can both walk barefoot on the same beach, and it’s okay, because there’s no fetishism? Hey, people wearing clothes make me really, really horny… Seriously, there are LOTS of things people do that I kinda wish I didn’t have to see. Piercings give me the creeps. If I were God-Emperor with Absolute Power, I’d tell people not to get piercings. (For some reason, the United Nations has been slow to take up the resolution granting me this status.) (United Nations has…? United Nations have…?) (I’m a grammar fetishist…) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/194 "2015-06-02T01:56:03Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If it were legal, would you wander about in public with your penis exposed Doc Cathode? And . . .scene. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/195 "2015-06-02T12:16:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > So, if I’m a foot fetishist, and bare feet really turn me on…I should be banned from walking barefoot with my girlfriend on a public beach… But another couple, for whom feet are not in any way sexualized, can both walk barefoot on the same beach, and it’s okay, because there’s no fetishism?.. I figured **Trinopus** was even older and crotchetier than me. If he’s ok with guys walking women in the mall, I admit defeat. But, speaking of de feet: Barefeet in public doesn’t rise to the level of sexual fetishism in my opinion. Again, going to the mildest side of the spectrum should also allow discussion of the hard core side. Are you ok with someone engaged in extreme foot worship at the table next to you at the mall food court? But, still no one is addressing the question, _is there any point along the spectrum of sexual fetishism in public where you would draw a line?_ Simple question. The consensus in this thread is that a man walking a woman on a leash in the mall is acceptable. Fine. But are all public displays of fetishism acceptable? And, for those of you who believe all fetish displays are acceptable, do you also think laws prohibiting public nudity, or sex should be relaxed? If not, what are your reasons for differentiating them? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/196 "2015-06-02T12:43:57Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > I figured **Trinopus** was even older and crotchetier than me. If he’s ok with guys walking women in the mall, I admit defeat. But, speaking of de feet: > > Barefeet in public doesn’t rise to the level of sexual fetishism in my opinion. Again, going to the mildest side of the spectrum should also allow discussion of the hard core side. Are you ok with someone engaged in extreme foot worship at the table next to you at the mall food court? > > But, still no one is addressing the question, _is there any point along the spectrum of sexual fetishism in public where you would draw a line?_ Simple question. The consensus in this thread is that a man walking a woman on a leash in the mall is acceptable. Fine. But are all public displays of fetishism acceptable? > > And, for those of you who believe all fetish displays are acceptable, do you also think laws prohibiting public nudity, or sex should be relaxed? If not, what are your reasons for differentiating them? For starters, public hygiene remains a legitimate concern, which covers most public nudity and sex situations. Secondly, I believe that private organizations have a right to set certain standards above and beyond the legal requirement as long as such standards are applied consistently and fairly and are not in violation of discrimination laws (so “no shirt, no shoes, no service” is fine as long as it applies to everyone; “no black people” is not fine). I also believe that they have the right to exclude people behaving in a disruptive manner. Both of these are of course subject to both legal challenge and public opprobrium; if more people agree with the people you’ve excluded than you, you’re going to lose business. Thirdly, I think we need to reiterate which meaning of “acceptable” we’re talking about. Public displays of fetishism which do not violate laws regarding nudity etc are legally acceptable but may be considered distasteful (or “unacceptable”) by onlookers. I’d draw the legal line about where it is now: no nudity or otherwise exposed genitalia, no sex in public, and no behavior which meets an appropriate standard of “disruptive”. If society evolves to the point where some forms of nudity currently banned (which don’t have hygiene implications) are deemed acceptable, I will likely revise my view accordingly. Personally I find the dog-walker’s behavior tacky. The appropriate response is to ignore them, not to arrest them. If they were actively bothering people (e.g. going around sniffing people’s crotches) I’d agree with ejection or potential arrest depending on the severity of the offense, but as described they’re just “being weird in public” which if made illegal would pretty much require you to build a prison wall around NYC and have done with it. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/197 "2015-06-02T13:13:46Z")
Wait! They allow dogs in the mall? Is she a service animal? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/198 "2015-06-02T13:19:40Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Or they were holding hands as a show of affection. I hear gay people are capable of human emotions. And kinky people are too, even if they express them oddly. Ah yes. How silly of me, to not realize that. Thanks for the gentle reminder-by-insinuation that I’m a rabid homophobe all set on dehumanizing gay people. 😃 Or more seriously … yes of course gay people are “capable of human emotions”. The point of _holding hands in a public place where said gay people fully well know the general public is homophobic_ is exactly to assert that - not only are gay people “capable of human emotions”, but that they have _just as much right to demonstrate this affection in public places as straight people_. Insofar as it is intended to have any meaning for observers, it’s an ‘argument from normalicy’, like I said. As much as you would like it to be, walking a partner like a dog on a leash simply isn’t the same thing at all. No-one - gay or straight - is going to look at that sight and think ‘aw, that public display of affection really brings home to me how those folks are just like us, in their own way - oh look, he’s let her off the leash and she’s slurping water from a decorative fountain just like a real dog! How adorable!’ [Note: this actually happened, according to the OP story]. At best, what they will be thinking is ‘what a freakshow’. > [@](#): > > I meant, at the very least, they thought “people at the mall will stare” and decided they didn’t mind. They may have thought “people at the mall will stare” and decided they wanted that. But I think it’s incorrect to assume they went to the mall in order to be stared at, which is an assumption some people seem to be making. The choice of venue speaks otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/199 "2015-06-02T14:42:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … > As much as you would like it to be, walking a partner like a dog on a leash simply isn’t the same thing at all. No-one - gay or straight - is going to look at that sight and think ‘aw, that public display of affection really brings home to me how those folks are just like us, in their own way - oh look, he’s let her off the leash and she’s slurping water from a decorative fountain just like a real dog! How adorable!’ [Note: this actually happened, according to the OP story]. > > At best, what they will be thinking is ‘what a freakshow’. … “what a freak show” is \*exactly \*what a lot of people thought (and still think) about gay PDA, even fairly vanilla PDA like handholding. This is a difference of degree, not of kind. 40 or 60 years ago square America could maintain the fiction that gay was a tiny fraction of 1%, rather than the 10-ish% it really was/is. Right now square America is trying desperately to maintain the fiction that fetishism is a tiny fraction of 1%, rather than the 10-ish% it really is. I don’t have a personal dog in this fight (heh!). But overall IMO you either believe others have the right to behave as they want, or you think others have an obligation to behave according to your list of specifications, be that pretty wide or be that extremely narrow. Speaking for me alone, I draw the line at disruption of my right to quiet enjoyment of whatever. She slurps at the mall fountain: meh. She pisses on my leg: there’s gonna be hell to pay. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979/200 "2015-06-02T14:49:49Z")
I’m not necessarily offended by this at all. Live and let live. However, to say they aren’t doing it for the attention is the most laughably disingenuous thing I’ve heard in a long time. It’s a double edged sword for them. They are LOOKING for the shock value and the attnetion. If we, as a society ignore them in that live and let live manner, it may very well lose it’s cachet for them. On another note, my wife and I walk around the mall with her purse out and in full public view. That’s where she keeps my balls. We don’t do it for the attention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-our-lifestyle-man-walks-woman-on-leash-in-mall/720979.md?page=11)