# It's People AND Guns that kill people **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338 "2003-03-31T01:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/41 "2003-03-31T12:11:30Z")
I think the opening post wins the award for “Stupidest of the Year”. That said, there’s some fun to be had with making up highly emotional strawmen scenarios and committing the fallacy of the excluded middle. Thus: You wake up at 2am. There are noises coming from the kitchen. You decide to go down and investigate, but first you pick something up to defend yourself with. You get to the bottom of the stairs, and you see a shadowy figure wearing a mask. Your heart is beating 200 times a minute. You get a sudden rush of adrenalin through your body. The figure turns toward you, and you think he may have a knife in his hand. Suddenly you realize it’s an alien: the mask is his breathing apparatus: he can’t survive in an oxygen atmosphere! In his hand is his rectal probe! Scenario 1) You have a gun-you shoot the slimey alien invader protecting both your planet and your precious bodily fluids. Going out in the back yard, you find his concealed spaceship. You and a team of crack scientists reverse-engineer it and Earth spreads to the stars, forming a galactic empire and creating a golden age that lasts 10,000 years…and this happy future is all because you had a gun! Scenario 2) You have a golf-club. You limply swat at the slimey alien invader to no effect. Uh-oh. Now you’ve made him mad. He captures you and probes you _without_ using his knock-out ray first. He then douses you in cheap rum and drops you on a lonely dirt road. Since you’re not believed, and since your wussy little attempt at self-defense was so pathetic, the aliens grow more bold, eventually taking over the entire earth, making select members of humanity into their probe-slaves and the rest into lobotomized workers in their ammonia mines. If _only_ you’d had a gun! The world could have been saved. Anyone else wanna have a go at it? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/42 "2003-03-31T13:02:48Z")
I am seeing a hypothetical question series about you being armed with either a pistol or a golf club, and a child terrorist breaks in to your house. In his hands is a button. If he presses the button, millions will die. But you can…Ah, screw it. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/43 "2003-03-31T13:03:54Z")
Bwah-hahahaha… Thank you **Fenris** for the reality check… ---
**Author:** ![Texican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ebca7d/32.png) [@Texican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texican)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/44 "2003-03-31T14:14:39Z")
by Samarm: "Regardless of what the boy did, he did not deserve to lose his life. " People like you scare me. You are the reason we have such a problem with crime in our society. The more dangerous crime is to the criminal, the more likely they are to find another means to get some money. If it was my house, I would have shot him the minute I was sure it was not someone who had a reason to be there. If the first shot didn’t kill him, I’d shoot again. Any threat to my life or that of someone I love will be met with sufficient force to ensure 100% that me and mine escape without harm. Fuck the other guy. He took his chance when he broke in. It is because of people who think like you that criminals view regular people as easy marks to be exploited. Posted by Kimstu: “If you knock down the teenage intruder with a golf club and he runs away, you are probably completely in the clear, legally speaking.” Not quite. In many localities, most likely in the same ones that strictly control honest citizen’s access to the means of self defense (coincidence) the criminal very likely will be able to collect damages from you via a lawsuit. Happens all the time. I’ve read plenty of cases where someone breaks in, injures themself, and then sues. Seems there was a case recently of a guy that got stuck in someone’s garage because the door opener was faulty. Whether or not he wins the lawsuit, the homeowner will suffer significant financial losses defending himself. ---
**Author:** ![Texican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ebca7d/32.png) [@Texican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texican)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/45 "2003-03-31T14:18:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Wrong \* > \*\* Look, I’m not getting blood all over my nine-iron if there’s a perfectly good _firearm_ in the house. \*\* Man, I love good old fashioned common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/46 "2003-03-31T14:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Texican \* > \*\*If the first shot didn’t kill him, I’d shoot again. Any threat to my life or that of someone I love will be met with sufficient force to ensure 100% that me and mine escape without harm. \*\* I guess I’ll turn the tables around and say that you scare me as well. You sound more interested in killing someone then you do in defending your life or the life of another. Why would you automatically shoot someone again if the first shot didn’t kill him? That would just make you a murderer. Marc ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/47 "2003-03-31T14:57:35Z")
**MGibson** wrote: > [@](#): > > I guess I’ll turn the tables around and say that you scare me as well. You sound more interested in killing someone then you do in defending your life or the life of another. Why would you automatically shoot someone again if the first shot didn’t kill him? Actually, the rule of thumb is, you aim center mass and shoot until the threat is removed. If it takes one shot or six to put the guy down (note, not kill) and end the threat, so be it. If the guy dies, well, sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![DasUnterMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DasUnterMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DasUnterMensch)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/48 "2003-03-31T16:18:15Z")
Hey Texican: Got this in the email from the UberWench. From one Texan to another. Enjoy. Subject: Self Defense Issue - Are you a Liberal, Conservative, or a Texan? The Debate Between Liberal and Conservative over the War On Crime continues: Are you liberal, conservative or Texan? Question: You’re walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do? * * * Liberal Answer: Well, that’s not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he’d be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion. * * * Conservative Answer: BANG! * * * Texan’s Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!BANG! BANG! click… RELOAD!!! Wife: “Sweetheart, he looks like he’s still moving, what do you kids think?” Son: “Mom’s right Dad, I saw it too…” BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!BANG! BANG! Daughter: “Nice grouping Daddy!” 😃 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/49 "2003-03-31T17:45:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*I am seeing a hypothetical question series about you being armed with either a pistol or a golf club, and a child terrorist breaks in to your house. In his hands is a button. If he presses the button, millions will die. But you can…Ah, screw it. \*\* You’re armed with either a pistol or a golf club, and young Hitler breaks into your house. You’ve got the shot. Will you take it? ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/50 "2003-03-31T18:41:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by buttonjockey308 \* > \*\* > > 1. A gun is, ALWAYS a last resort, even for trained police officers. > \*\* So, never been to Detroit, have you? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/51 "2003-03-31T19:12:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samarm \* > \*\*You wake up at 2am. There are noises coming from the kitchen. You decide to go down and investigate, but first you pick something up to defend yourself with. > > You get to the bottom of the stairs, and you see a shadowy figure wearing a mask. Your heart is beating 200 times a minute. You get a sudden rush of adrenalin through your body. The figure turns toward you, and you think he may have a knife in his hand. > > If you had picked up a gun to defend yourself with: > > You point the gun at the mystery intruder and squeeze the trigger. BANG! A 14 year old boy is lying on the floor, writhing in pain, fatally wounded by a gunshot to the torso. The boy’s family go through hell because they have lost a son. > > If you had picked up a golf club to defend yourself with: > > You swing the club at the mystery figure. You knock him to the floor. He gets to his feet and runs out the door, not wanting any more of a beating. > > The boy eventually \ \*\* **The boy eventually…** makes his way into the house next door, where he rapes and murders a 60-year-old woman, and injures the woman’s husband so badly the man eats through a straw the rest of his life. **The boy eventually…** grows up to be Adolph Hitler **The boy eventually…** grows up to be Charlton Heston :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/52 "2003-03-31T21:26:03Z")
I think the scenarios are silly, too. Why would anyone shoot or crush the skull of he who would grow up to cure cancer? Just as a conversation point, though, I once fought off an attacker who was armed with a knife. If I’d had a gun, I’m not sure that I would have shot him, and if you’d asked me ahead of time, I’m sure that I would have said there was no way I’d attempt to evade a knife-wielding rapist with the keychain pepper spray my mother gave me. I also once rescued a car accident victim from a vehicle that was, although jammed into an embankment, making a horrible noise and producing sparks and smoke. In both cases, I think my natural stupidity allowed me to act before correctly assessing the situation. (FYI: The attacker he was going to rape me, and I assume that threat wasn’t just a ruse to throw me off track so I would guard my purse less vigilantly and he could steal it easily. And, no, I should have not have been on that street at that time of night.) ---
**Author:** ![Texican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ebca7d/32.png) [@Texican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texican)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/53 "2003-03-31T22:58:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > > * * * > > I guess I’ll turn the tables around and say that you scare me as well. You sound more interested in killing someone then you do in defending your life or the life of another. Why would you automatically shoot someone again if the first shot didn’t kill him? That would just make you a murderer. > > Marc \*\* Because a live criminal in my home is a threat. A dead one isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Texican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ebca7d/32.png) [@Texican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Texican)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/54 "2003-03-31T23:01:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DasUnterMensch \* > \*\*Hey Texican: > Got this in the email from the UberWench. > From one Texan to another. > Enjoy. > > Subject: Self Defense Issue - Are you a Liberal, Conservative, or a > Texan? > > The Debate Between Liberal and Conservative over the > War On Crime continues: Are you liberal, conservative or Texan? > > Question: > > You’re walking down a deserted street with your wife > and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking > man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is > running at you while screaming obscenities. In your > hand is a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. > You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your > family. What do you do? > > * * * > > Liberal Answer: > > Well, that’s not enough information to answer the > question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I > ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to > attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? > What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun > like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What > does the law say about this situation? Is it possible > he’d be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely > want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? > If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family > get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! > I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try > to come to a conclusion. > > * * * > > Conservative Answer: > BANG! > > * * * > > Texan’s Answer: > BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!BANG! BANG! > > click… RELOAD!!! > > Wife: “Sweetheart, he looks like he’s still moving, > what do you kids think?” > > Son: “Mom’s right Dad, I saw it too…” > > BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!BANG! BANG! > > Daughter: “Nice grouping Daddy!” > > 😃 😃 😃 😃 \*\* Are we related?😃 ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/55 "2003-04-01T02:54:04Z")
How about a situation that isn’t hypothetical? It’s 2:30 in the morning on **six’s** night off from her midnight job in the computer systems development lab. She’s sitting at her computer as she did pretty much every night that she didn’t work and her pistol is on the table beside her. The outside door of her building crashes open and footsteps pound up the stairs to her apartment. Within a couple of seconds, her front door is shaken loose and an intruder stands in the doorway. **Six** picks up her pistol and points it at the intruder. She warns him that he’s got 3 seconds to leave or she will shoot him. The intruder turns around and makes a hasty exit from the building. Later on, the police that this intruder was running from arrest him in the alley hiding behind the dumpster near **Six’s** building. It really happened, and it happened to me. Someone breaking into my home _will_ be seen as a threat to my life. I will not risk being raped and/or murdered because maybe the intruder will some day be a model citizen. Nor will I ever apologize for that. ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/56 "2003-04-01T03:53:01Z")
But what if the intruder was armed with a BANANA?, or…gasp! a RASPBERRY! ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/57 "2003-04-01T04:01:08Z")
In the few seconds that I had to make a judgment and commit to a course of action, I never saw whether the guy was armed or not. What made him a threat to my life was that he entered my home by force totally uninvited. The first thought I had was ‘This guy could kill me.’ And the second was ‘I’m not going to let him.’ ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/58 "2003-04-01T05:55:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by unclviny \* > \*\*But what if the intruder was armed with a BANANA?, or…gasp! a RASPBERRY! \*\* Well, then we will drop the 20 ton weight on him or release the tiger. You force him to drop the banana, then you eat the banana. Thus rendering him helpless. Particulary if you shoot him to make him drop the banana. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/59 "2003-04-01T07:07:38Z")
Lost, I’ve driven THROUGH Detroit on my way to Canada, just to be safe, I hung my gun out the window as I drove. Unlike here in Chicago, where I just keep it on my lap.😛 ---
**Author:** ![DasUnterMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DasUnterMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DasUnterMensch)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/60 "2003-04-01T13:35:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Texican \* > \*\*Are we related?😃 \*\* Only by birthright;) “Never ask a man were he’s from. If he’s from Texas, He’ll tell you. If he ain’t, don’t embarrass him.” - My grandfather [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338.md?page=4)