# It's People AND Guns that kill people **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338 "2003-03-31T01:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![stevephillips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@stevephillips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevephillips)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/81 "2003-04-03T01:27:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalashnikov \* > \*\*The fourth Rule does tend to get less emphasis compared to the other three Rules, doesn’t it? > > . . . > > I think everyone should train with shoot/don’t-shoot targets. . . . \*\* You are quite right. I do need formal training. All I’ve had is hunter’s safety, years ago. But what scares me about what happened is I 'm not sure how I could have ever known my target without stopping and turning on the light, which wasn’t an easy choice. But I did it. This could happen to anyone. Maybe it’s your 16 year old daughter’s boyfriend sneaking in for a tryst. I’m sure some think, “my daughter wouldn’t do that.” (Really?) Maybe it’s your 21 year old nephew who just broke up with his girlfriend, got drunk, is 3 states from home at college or in the military and decides to visit you because you are closest family, but he doesn’t want to wake you up. Good point: Know your target (and what’s behind it.) But that rule (correctly) makes the decision to shoot a whole lot more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/82 "2003-04-03T03:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalashnikov \* > \*\*errmm, isn’t 7.62x39 kind of overkill inside a house? > Unless your masked intruders are the kind who cary H&Ks, that is. 😉 \*\* uh, I dont have a shotgun , and the only thing I’d be thinking is if I’ll be breathing in 5 minutes. The weapon is mostly for fun, ammo is cheap, there’s a range close by… **Mgibson** I’d shoot him more than once, these things usually happen real fast, no time to think _or_ count your shots… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/83 "2003-04-03T03:35:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tony Montana \* > \*\* > **Mgibson** I’d shoot him more than once, these things usually happen real fast, no time to think _or_ count your shots… \*\* THat’s a bit different then shooting him until he stops breathing. Can I take it that shooting until he “draws his last breath” was something of a hyperbole? Marc ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/84 "2003-04-03T04:39:09Z")
> [@](#): > > **MGibson** said: > If you shoot an intruder and they’re no longer threatening there is no moral reason to shoot them again. So long as he can move his trigger finger enough to squeeze a single shot out of a gun, he’s a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/85 "2003-04-03T05:01:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rug Burn \* > \*\*So, who’s up for a Texas Dopefest at the gun range? 😃 > > Quite a few of you say to keep shooting until the intruder stops advancing on you. In the military, I was taught to double tap ( 2 round bursts). Is shooting in that manner likely to be looked at as excessive force or unjustified? > > I imagine if I was really faced with what I thought was a life threatening situation, I would shoot at least 4 rounds. I would aim for center mass and double tap then repeat, then assess the situation further. \*\* Nah. Cops should know that many if not most people train to do double taps, and you’d have no trouble finding an expert to tell the jury that. You could find hundreds of books and articles that recommend it. Same with the Mozambique (2 shots center of mass, evaluate, one to the head if needed), but that does involve a reassessment of the target. I always go off about “shoot to STOP”\*, but really, the first double tap counts as one. \*mostly for the shooter’s benefit, actually ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/86 "2003-04-03T05:19:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* Can I take it that shooting until he “draws his last breath” was something of a hyperbole? > > Marc \*\* Yes. When my knee starts acting up I tend to use hyperbole… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/87 "2003-04-03T06:33:51Z")
Little known fact: Bilbo was a burglar: he burgled things. When he met Golem, he said “oh no! He’s a construct! I can’t administer a Coup de Grace!” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/88 "2003-04-03T06:38:13Z")
Oh, and I’m lame at pistols. I got like 3 out of a clip at 5 meters with a 9. But when I move into a place that allows me to have guns, I’m gonna buy some sort of semi carbine. I would buy a sawed-off but I’d also be worried about the things in my apt. I don’t think any intruder with a pistol could take me on, even if they have more experience. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/89 "2003-04-03T07:13:24Z")
When your family, friends, in laws and out laws all are gun people and everyone knows that everyone has loaded guns , well, nobody will get drunk enough to sneak in nor will they let their boyfriends because they know what will happen. That drunk = out cold and can’t move… ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/90 "2003-04-03T10:17:20Z")
Have any of you heard of a thing called “Force Continuum”? probably not unless you’re in security or law enforcement work. This is a list of force options which start from mere presence, dialog, hand to hand combat, impact weapon (baton), pepper spray, and then deadly force (firearm). What I’m saying is, if you really are dumb enough to confront an intruder in your house, you should arm yourself with more than a gun. You should also have a non-lethal defense item, like pepper spray. If you don’t you are limiting yourself to only using lethal force (shooting someone, regardless of where you shoot them, is always deadly force whether they die or not. If you don’t believe me, call your local D.A. and ask him). In a lot of places simply having a burglar in you home is not grounds to use deadly force. You need to be able to articulate that the intruder threatened force upon you, AND that you feared that you were in danger of death or great bodily harm. Simply saying you were scared because someone was in the house might not save you legally. (though in my opinion it should). Have a good can of pepper spray next to where you keep your gun. Better yet, arm yourself with a gun and pepper spray, then get back in bed and stay there while you call 911. Walking around your house looking for an intruder is extremly dangerous and stupid! ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/91 "2003-04-03T10:41:13Z")
Here is my take on it, and it’s what I trained my girlfriend to do as well (my ex-wife’s dad had already taught her this one…). Here is the gun. This is how it works. If someone has broken into this house, where we live and my children may be sleeping, get their attention and then shoot them in the torso twice. Try for the upper torso, but center mass will work in a pinch. Close and lock the door, call the police and get a knife from the kitchen. If the perp is still conscious, kick him/her in the head until they are out. Then place the knife under their body. “Officer, I was awoken by a noise. I saw this man/woman in my house, and he/she had a knife. He/She saw me, and came towards me. I was in fear for my life, and fired.” Important points: 1- MAke sure the shots go in the front of the body. 2- The Ammunition used will pretty much assure a death. Be prepared for that. 3- make sure everyone of age and ability knows how to shoot the gun. Take them to a range, often if possible. Is it morally right? For me, yes, for you… probably not. However, if I’ve killed an intruder, I’m going to sleep well that night, no problem. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/92 "2003-04-03T10:57:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > \*\* > Close and lock the door, call the police and get a knife from the kitchen. If the perp is still conscious, kick him/her in the head until they are out. Then place the knife under their body. > > Is it morally right? For me, yes, for you… probably not. > > However, if I’ve killed an intruder, I’m going to sleep well that night, no problem. \*\* You’ll sleep well alright! In a jail cell while you wait for your arraignment! What you describe here is not only a felony, but one of the stupidest posts I’ve ever read (from a legal defense point of view). Once homocide investigators realize that what you claim happened really didn’t (and they will!), you have robbed yourself of almost any chance of claiming any sort of self defense. Your credibilty will be gone. They’ll just add obstructing to the second degree murder charge. The kicker will be when they find your post on the SDMB.😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/93 "2003-04-03T11:09:51Z")
Well, the good thing is a- It’s not like this is likely to happen, and b- the annonymity of the internet is a great thing. Many here know that I live in Sacramento, but beyond that, the odds are against sometihng like this post coming to light. In retrospect, the kicking in the head is probably a bad idea. However, if done properly the invader to my home will be dead from the gunshots. It will be the word of me and mine, versus the dead person who is in my house illegally and was a threat to my safety. I’d also like to note that the odds are pretty good the invader would have a weapon of some sort anyway. I know in my checkered past, I always had at least a knife when I was entereing a house for less than honorable activities. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/94 "2003-04-03T13:01:22Z")
Hey y’all, would it be possible to discuss this without the hyperbole of “I’d empty the forty round magazine into 'em, then reload?” I think a majority would agree that you have a right to defend your castle so to speak. But it’s very important that you know the laws of your state vis-a-vis use of deadly force and the consequences, because some legislators/prosecutors don’t think so. In [South Carolina](http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/starticles/2001/jan/arsc012601.htm). > [@](#): > > (Columbia, S.C.) Attorney General Charlie Condon today announced that he is declaring “open season” on home invaders. In a Memorandum to all Solicitors, Sheriffs and Police Chiefs, Condon directed that citizens acting to defend their homes will not be arrested, charged or prosecuted. Condon said the policy was necessary in the wake of a rash of recent home invasions in North Charleston and elsewhere throughout the State. However, in [New York](http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/52803p-49473c.html). > [@](#): > > Dixon, who holds two computer jobs, was charged with misdemeanor gun possession, and the Brooklyn district attorney offered him a plea bargain that would require four weekends on Rikers. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/95 "2003-04-03T13:05:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*So long as he can move his trigger finger enough to squeeze a single shot out of a gun, he’s a threat. \*\* If you ever find yourself in that situation I hope you have access to the Straight Dope from your cell. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/96 "2003-04-03T13:15:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > \*\* > If someone has broken into this house, where we live and my children may be sleeping, get their attention and then shoot them in the torso twice. Try for the upper torso, but center mass will work in a pinch. Close and lock the door, call the police and get a knife from the kitchen. If the perp is still conscious, kick him/her in the head until they are out. Then place the knife under their body. \*\* That sounds like rather silly advice. Don’t you think the police will notice that this perp has some severe head injuries? If you really want to make it so you appear to be guilty of murder then by all means follow your own advice. > [@](#): > > \*\* > However, if I’ve killed an intruder, I’m going to sleep well that > night, no problem. \*\* Are you some sort of sociopath? I imagine if I ever shot someone in self-defense it would bother me for quite a while. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/97 "2003-04-03T13:36:51Z")
**MGibson** - Probably. I’ve discussed it at some length with friends… the concept of killing another human being raises no sort of emotional gestalt in me. If I had to kill an intruder at my home, my primary concern would be that the sounds would have awoken my children. If someone has come into my house with ill intent, all they are to me is a target, for guns, sticks, swords or my bare hands. And I will attempt to kill them if I deem it necessary to defend my family. I’m not sure why this makes me a ‘sociopath’, but it scares the hell out of my girlfriend. Fortunatly, it’s not a subject that comes up much. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/98 "2003-04-03T15:39:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\*Hey y’all, would it be possible to discuss this without the hyperbole of “I’d empty the forty round magazine into 'em, then reload?” \*\* Use of exaggeration to ask people _not_ to use hyperbole… IIRC I’m the only one who menioned a 40rd mag, and I _didn’t_ say re-load (I wouldn’t **need** to) **pkbites** , I couldn’t handle a can of pepper spray and my weapon at once, at least not effectivley(sp). Also I dont condone confronting an intruder,but _I_ wouldn’t have a choice as my place is small… ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/99 "2003-04-03T15:41:31Z")
**Tristan** , that is really the gawddam stupidest post I’ve read on this board in a long time. Not only would it be easy to prove that your crime was a premeditated murder, but by pulling your girlfriend into it, you’d be making her an accomplice. Use some sense man. **catsix** , from what I’ve read from you on these boards, I have a lot of respect for you. Please think about what you’re saying. I’m pretty sure, by your reaction to the intruder you talked about earlier, that you would act appropriately in a self-defense situation, but think about how what you’re saying sounds and how it could be used against you. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338/100 "2003-04-03T16:50:15Z")
why don’t we have cool lookin’ non-lethal guns yet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-people-and-guns-that-kill-people/165338.md?page=6)