# It's Point the Finger time!!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 25, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487 "2003-10-25T14:32:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/1 "2003-10-25T14:32:14Z")
According to an article in the 10/25 NY Times (Page 8)…
The CIA says that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence intends to release a report saying that “our intelligence agencies made serious errors of judgement in their prewar conclusion that Iraq possessed chemical and biological weapons, and was reconstituting its nuclear program.”
That figures.
If you’ll recall, before we went to war, Cheney, et al in the Administration, were beating up on the CIA and our other intelligence agencies to come up with the dirt - true or otherwise - to justify our invasion of Iraq.
The agencies balked, so Bush and his boys made up their own shit and off to war we went.
Recently Rummy’s says we’re looking at a long hard slog - which translates to “Oh-oh. We’re up to our ass in the dreaded quagmire. We’d better find someone other than the Dub and us to blame for it. Hmmm. How about George Tenet?”
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/2 "2003-10-25T16:45:12Z")
BBBRRRRRAPPPPP! [sound of dead birds plummetting to earth]
Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you said, “It’s ‘Pull my finger!’ time!!”
Well . . . it’s the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that’s pointing the finger in this particular instance, right? **Not** the Administration, although every Senate committee is of course dominated, at present, by Republicans. So let’s establish a definite link before we accuse the Administration of finger-pointing.
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### Author:  [@Earl\_of\_Sandwhich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_of_Sandwhich)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/3 "2003-10-25T16:50:09Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \*
> \*\* So let’s establish a definite link before we accuse the Administration of finger-pointing. \*\*
What do you call this , BrainGlutton?🙂
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/4 "2003-10-25T16:58:49Z")
A smoking finger. No doubt about it.
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### Author:  [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/5 "2003-10-25T16:58:59Z")
Oh what a miracle… They discover what outside the USA was clear before this criminal invasion even started.
Anybody overthere ever heard the name Hans Blix?
Salaam. A
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/6 "2003-10-25T17:01:14Z")
Not at all, **Al**. You don’t quite get it. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was a splendid and unqualified success, and its all the CIA’s fault.
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### Author:  [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/7 "2003-10-25T17:10:42Z")
Sure.
By the way, do you know what people say when in some country a lot of people get blown up in a terrorist attack while the obvious target is not even in the neighbourhood?
They say: This must once again have been the clumsy CIA.
And oh miracle you see an until then unknown (and recently most of the time named “Islamic”)" terrorist organisation" pup up like a mushroom to claim the responsibility.
Then people start commenting on the idiotic name the CIA invented.
Salaam. A
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/8 "2003-10-25T23:27:15Z")
I accuse my parents!
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/9 "2003-10-26T00:03:04Z")
That is a good question. If things are going well why do we have investigations?
If the CIA’s to blame, what are they to blame for? The poor quality of intel that was used to justify the necessity of the US led invasion of Iraq? Does that mean that the committee is saying we were not justified in going to war?
Relevant still and again:
\*\*[Pentagon Office of Special Plans (OSP)\*\*](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199309)
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### Author:  [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/10 "2003-10-26T00:05:07Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \*
> \*\*BBBRRRRRAPPPPP! [sound of dead birds plummetting to earth]
>
> Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you said, “It’s ‘Pull my finger!’ time!!”
>
> \*\*
I am ashamed of how hard I laughed at that.
Here is my predicted executive summary of the Senate Select Committee Report:
\*
When God put Bush in office (per Boykin), He loaned him His infallability. Therefore, intelligence errors are by definition the fault of the CIA, as Satan’s proxy.
\*
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/11 "2003-10-26T00:58:40Z")
What was that sign Truman kept on his desk? Something about a “buck”, wasn’t it?
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/12 "2003-10-26T06:20:42Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Antiochus \*
> Recently Rummy’s says we’re looking at a long hard slog - which translates to “Oh-oh. We’re up to our ass in the dreaded quagmire. We’d better find someone other than the Dub and us to blame for it. Hmmm. How about George Tenet?”
[Rocket J. Squirrel]
Again?!
[/Rocket J. Squirrel]
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### Author:  [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/13 "2003-10-26T15:26:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by rjung \*
> \*\*[Rocket J. Squirrel]
>
> Again?!
>
> [/Rocket J. Squirrel] \*\*
That trick _never_ works!
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### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/14 "2003-10-26T15:29:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \*
> \*\*What was that sign Truman kept on his desk? Something about a “buck”, wasn’t it? \*\*
Bush still has that sign; but it refers to petro-bucks now. Cheney has one too.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2003, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/15 "2003-10-27T08:36:13Z")
I hear that the First Lady has put up a sign that says _Not Tonight Deer_.
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### Author:  [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2003, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/16 "2003-10-27T10:55:56Z")
Well what did you expect ? Bush to issue a culpe mea ? As God’s appointed leader of the “free” people he can do no wrong… think no wrong or do no wrong. Naturally the fact that he cherry picked the intel himself must not come up.
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### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/17 "2003-10-27T12:54:55Z")
This is, what, the second or third round of finger-pointing so far? And the second one to hit Tenet and Co. As I recall he wasn’t wild about taking the hit last time.
It’ll be interesting to see if it gets traction with the electorate this time. The administration would like (I feel confident in saying) to have a scapegoat for this prior to election season.
Hell, I know **I** would were I them.
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### Author:  [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/18 "2003-10-27T18:42:42Z")
[If one believes Senator Durbin](http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/news/2003/intell-030717-voa01.htm), Tenet testified to the Senate that he received pressure from a White House aide to include the faulty uranium intelligence in the State of the Union Address, while also heroically accepting all responsibility.
Shortly thereafter, White House aide [Robert Hadley](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3088597.stm) said, “oops, I should have listened to Tenet,” but of course Hadley did not admit to putting pressure on the CIA.
And oddly enough, just one week before the SOTUA, deputy Defense Secretary, card-carrying neocon, purported architect of the [National Security Strategy](http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.html), and co-creator of the [Office of Special Plans](http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/iraq/office_of_special_plans.html) Paul Wolfowitz commented on the 12,000 page Iraqi report on its WMDs, [saying](http://www.dod.gov/news/Jan2003/t01232003_t0123cfr.html):
> [@](#):
>
> There is no mention of Iraqi efforts to procure uranium from abroad.
And then _voila!_ Those [sixteen words](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/13/cnna.wolf.rice/) showed up in the State of the Union Address the following week, even though the CIA had successfully nixed the allegation the previous October.
Yeah, it’s obviously all the CIA’s fault.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/19 "2003-10-27T19:48:48Z")
It’s way too late for scapegoating to work. This, it is clear to most by now, went way beyond a single person or even a single agency screwing up on a single thing. Even the lies don’t matter all that much. What I think the electorate will focus on is the general bungling, both then and now, the lack of any plausible plan, the lack of communication, and the lack of any leadership to pull it together at any time. Honest mistakes can be fixed and forgiven, but a bungler will always be a bungler, and a dishonest man or administration will always be a dishonest man or administration. Bush will have to make us think he can fix this mess, but he has not yet begun to do so, and time is running out.
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### Author:  [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)
#### Post date: [October 27, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-point-the-finger-time/209487/20 "2003-10-27T21:37:52Z")
Read the “The Stovepipe - How the intelligence system got off course,” by Seymour M. Hersh, in the October 27 issue of “The New Yorker” magazine.
The article suggests that those Niger documents dealing with the sale of “yellowcake” might have been forged by disgruntled CIA retirees.
It was intended to make the Administration look like assholes. I must hasten to say that Hersh carefully notes, “Who produced the fake Niger papers? There is nothing approaching a consensus.” And he suggests other countries’ intelligence agencies, including SISMI (Italy’s CIA equivalent) as possibilities. But then he says:
* * *
Another explanation was provided by a former senior C.I.A. officer. He had begun talking about the forgery and said, “Somebody deliberately let something false get in there.” He became more forthcoming in subsequent months, eventually saying that a small group of disgruntled C.I.A. clandestine operators had banded together in the late summer of last year and drafted the fraudulent documents themselves.
“The agency guys were so pissed at Cheney,” the former officer said. “They said, ‘O.K., we’re going to put the bite on these guys.’” My source said that he was first told of the fabrication late last year, at one of the many holiday gatherings in the Washington area of past and present C.I.A. officials. “Everyone was bragging about it - ‘Here’s what we did. It was cool, cool, cool.’” These retirees, he said, had superb contacts among current officers in the agency and were informed in detail of SISMI intelligence.
“They thought that, with this crowd, it was the only way to go - nail these guys who were not practicing good tradecraft and vetting intelligence,” my source said. “They thought it’d be bought at lower levels - a big bluff.” The thinking, he said, was that the documents would be endorsed by Iraq hawks at the top of the Bush Administration, who would be unable to resist flaunting them at a press conference or an interagency government meeting. They would then look foolish when the intelligence officials pointed out that they were obvious fakes. But the tactic backfired, he said, when the papers won widespread acceptance within the Administration. “It got out of control.”
* * *
(SISMI is Italy’s CIA)
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