# It's really hard to take this stuff seriously. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 28, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541 "2006-05-28T15:06:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/1 "2006-05-28T15:06:45Z")
The default position is that one is supposed to respect religion even in disagreement-but[how can we be expected to do that](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kneel28may28,0,7235402.story?coll=la-home-headlines) in the presence of such as this? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/2 "2006-05-28T15:11:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The debate is part of the argument among Catholics between tradition and change. Traditionalists see it as the ultimate posture of submission to and adoration of God; modernists view kneeling as the vestige of a feudal past they would like to leave behind. Would that the Catholic Church would like to leave behind more important vestiges of a feudal past than this one. IMO, the Bishop is out of line–people worship in the way they were taught as kids. 1/3 of the congregants still kneel? Why Would Jesus Care? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/3 "2006-05-28T15:29:34Z")
Screw religion, this article makes it really hard to take journalism seriously. > [@](#): > > At the center of the controversy is the church’s concept of Christ, said Jesuit Father Lawrence J. Madden, director of the Georgetown Center for Liturgy at Georgetown University in Washington. It’s a question raised in the bestselling book “The Da Vinci Code.” _checks forum_ What does The Da Vinci code have to do with this? Was the author trying to get a supurfluous Google hit? What the hell? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/4 "2006-05-28T15:34:17Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Would that the Catholic Church would like to leave behind more important vestiges of a feudal past than this one. Exactly. Kneeling? Who cares? Let them do cartwheels of adoration if they feel like it. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/5 "2006-05-28T15:40:27Z")
Since when do Catholic priests have a problem with members of their congregation getting on their knees? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/6 "2006-05-28T15:40:46Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Since when do Catholic priests have a problem with members of their congregation getting on their knees? 😃 Ooh, burn. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/7 "2006-05-28T15:43:54Z")
This part at the beginning gets me: > [@](#): > > Kneeling “is clearly rebellion, grave disobedience and mortal sin”… You know what, to say that these people are in a state of mortal sin because they’re praying in the manner that they prefer…well, that’s one of the reasons I’m no longer a practicing Catholic. Not the major reason, but one of them - to me Mass was/is about prayer, and during many Masses, by that time I was fairly deep in prayer - so my body knew what was expected. When I visited other parishes where they stood, it jolted me out of my prayer state (now I’d call it almost a meditation state). Let people pray as they will, within the bounds of respectfulness to the Mass and to others around them. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/8 "2006-05-28T16:01:58Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > The default position is that one is supposed to respect religion even in disagreement-but[how can we be expected to do that](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kneel28may28,0,7235402.story?coll=la-home-headlines) in the presence of such as this? No, you are supposed to _treat religion with respect_. Whether you actually respect it or not is irrelevant. I’m Jewish. But, I still treat copies of the NT, the Book Of Mormon or Al Quran the same way I would treat a torah. As a member of a religion in which we wear funny hats on our heads, and cut the turtlenecks off of our other heads, I realize that this is some pretty strange stuff. But when a gentile attends a Jewish ceremony, the proper behavior is to show respect and shout “Mazel tov!” when appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/9 "2006-05-28T16:06:21Z")
I’m an atheist, and I think that’s rather sad. Ordinary people of faith are being used in a proxy war where ironically the authority of bishops is being undermined by those who wish to reassert a less questioning time. That’s cold. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/10 "2006-05-28T16:16:29Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Screw religion, this article makes it really hard to take journalism seriously. > > _checks forum_ > > What does The Da Vinci code have to do with this? Was the author trying to get a supurfluous Google hit? What the hell? Couldn’t agree more. However journalists don’t claim to be God’s chosen spokesman or consign people to eternal fire for disagreeing, and they don’t speak inerrantly. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/11 "2006-05-28T18:49:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > No, you are supposed to _treat religion with respect_. Whether you actually respect it or not is irrelevant. I’m Jewish. But, I still treat copies of the NT, the Book Of Mormon or Al Quran the same way I would treat a torah. > > As a member of a religion in which we wear funny hats on our heads, and cut the turtlenecks off of our other heads, I realize that this is some pretty strange stuff. But when a gentile attends a Jewish ceremony, the proper behavior is to show respect and shout “Mazel tov!” when appropriate. No, you are supposed to treat people with respect. Stupid ideas, dumb arguments and piles of paper are just that, ideas, arguments and paper. I treat books with respect because of the ideas in them and I like them in good shape. But in the end, religious texts are just piles of wood pulp and ink. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/12 "2006-05-28T19:26:44Z")
I suppose those special church benches, with a padded rail in front where you can kneel, are rather expensive to make. Besides, with ordinary chairs, a room can be put to other uses besides worship. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/13 "2006-05-28T19:50:31Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > I suppose those special church benches, with a padded rail in front where you can kneel, are rather expensive to make. Besides, with ordinary chairs, a room can be put to other uses besides worship. I’m going to be nitpicky here. There are ordinary chairs (more or less) that have kneelers built in. I’ve seen them used in more than one church that didn’t have pews. (Oh, and the kneeler is built into the back of the chair, not the front. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![swampbear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampbear/32/467_2.png) [@swampbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampbear)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/14 "2006-05-28T20:00:01Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Exactly. Kneeling? Who cares? Let them do cartwheels of adoration if they feel like it. I really, really, really want to see this done in church. What a silly arguement. If people want to kneel, let 'em kneel. If they want to stand, let 'em stand. I always assumed it was the fact that a congregation gathered for worship that mattered most. Then again, I’m Episcopal. Some people stand, some people kneel. It’s all good. As long as somebody remembered to make the coffee for coffee hour afterwards, we’re happy. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/15 "2006-05-28T20:10:02Z")
> [@swampbear](#): > > What a silly arguement. If people want to kneel, let 'em kneel. If they want to stand, let 'em stand. I always assumed it was the fact that a congregation gathered for worship that mattered most. My Grandma Mercotan considered that the attitude of the hell-bound. Of course, she considered me hell-bound too, especially since the best man in my wedding was jewish. So there you go. If she’d lived to hear I was Unitarian, which has had “sky-clad” services in some parts of the country, it would have been interesting to see her reaction. :eek: As for the OP, well when you have an official church hierarchy, with chain of command, you’re gonna get stuff like this. What is the purpose of the hierarchy, if not to tell the subordinates how things are supposed to be done? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/16 "2006-05-28T20:38:11Z")
That bishop is as rigid a hardcase as any “old-timer”. It sounds as if since he thinks one way, that is automatically the\* only\* way. I’m not Catholic, I’m Episcopalian. In the pews of my congregations’ church there is one of those “Welcome!” books, for newcomers. It explains why we do some of the things we do, and explains terms. But the first page, which is as far as some people get, it dedicated to simple statements of welcome. The book says “We are glad you are here, and want you to come back” and “Everyone was a newcomer at one time” It says “_No matter what other people may be doing, don’t do anything which makes you feel uncomfortable_” and that goes on to mention standing up, or kneeling, or whatever. The final and most important statement is in regards to Holy Communion. "_You may be wondering, ‘am I allowed to take Communion here?’ The answer is not YES, but WE HOPE YOU WILL!_ Some of us kneel at times, some don’t. It’s left up to us. We are told that no one way of public worship is the only way, that the way we do it is a matter of custom, and most definitely not a requirement to “be saved” It’s too bad that the rigidity of one person may be misrepresenting their faith. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/17 "2006-05-28T21:05:10Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > As for the OP, well when you have an official church hierarchy, with chain of command, you’re gonna get stuff like this. What is the purpose of the hierarchy, if not to tell the subordinates how things are supposed to be done? Agreed, and that’s why I didn’t stay in that rigid, hierarchical Army. Some of things that hierarchy insisted upon were also hard to take seriously. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/18 "2006-05-28T23:22:18Z")
> [@swampbear](#): > > Then again, I’m Episcopal. Some people stand, some people kneel. It’s all good. As long as somebody remembered to make the coffee for coffee hour afterwards, we’re happy. Episcopal? In America, that almost makes you an atheist. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/19 "2006-05-29T00:25:40Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > No, you are supposed to _treat religion with respect_. Whether you actually respect it or not is irrelevant. Why ? I _don’t_ respect religion; why should I lie and pretend otherwise ? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/20 "2006-05-29T00:45:29Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Why ? I _don’t_ respect religion; why should I lie and pretend otherwise ? Because a large number of people will become beligerent and possibly violent upon perceived disrespect to their religion. If you feel you can handle that, then no reason. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541.md?page=2)