# It's really hard to take this stuff seriously. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 28, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541 "2006-05-28T15:06:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/41 "2006-05-30T02:04:04Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > If you are not Catholic and a member of this diocese, than what business is it of yours? > > Maybe ‘respecting religion’ should include minding your own business. This is their debate, and their problem. It doesn’t seem to be your debate but yet, you have a problem with them, or is it that you have a problem respecting religion? Because the Catholic hierarchy seems to expect to be taken seriously in other areas of public life, where they threaten to withhold the sacrament or even excommunicate catholic politicians who favor stem cell research or reproductive rights. Or when their clergy preach the evils of gay sex and push for legislation to make it illegal. To name only a few current worldwide examples. If an organization wants to make their beliefs a basis for public policy, then the public has a right, if not a responsibility, to examine and form opinions on those beliefs. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/42 "2006-05-30T02:18:01Z")
> [@kittenblue](#): > > What I find most aggravating about the situation is that, if this priest were hit by a bus tomorrow and they had to replace him, a new priest might decide that kneeling is just fine, and welcome everyone back. Since the church hierarchy says, “you have to do whatever the current priest says” the congregation should be trying to replace the priest. We can do that in the United Methodist church. If enough members of the congregation have a problem with a minister, she or he will be gone after the next annual conference. Guess it doesn’t work that way for Catholics since the option of replacing Father Tran isn’t even mentioned. Nope, you can complain to the bishop, but it’s completely up to each bishop to decide whether or not said priest stays or goes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/43 "2006-05-30T04:47:23Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > By this you then mean they verbally attack you? Obviously you verbally attack them, too (we can skip the part where we look at your comments in threads to show this, I presume.) I don’t talk to people about religion face to face at all. That’s _why_ I’ve never been attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/44 "2006-05-30T05:15:36Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > After a Vatican council, or indeed at any other time, Il Papa can suddenly decide thou shalt not make duck noises lest thou shalt be hellbound, and thou therefore mustn’t do it therefrom. Those who made duck noises in the past are retrospectively cast into brimstone, unless enough novenas etc. are said for their souls. And I thought that Orwell based the Ministry of Truth on Stalin! Silly me. As for me, I respect the books, the statues, the stained glass windows and the buildings. The people and the belief system are a bunch of nutters, in general. I have a lot more respect for the subset who admit that they might be wrong, though. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/45 "2006-05-30T05:29:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe the Vatican is currently seriously considering whether or not to declare Limbo non-existent, and all those millions of poor unbaptised dead babies’ souls are suddenly whisked away from their floating around straight into heaven - I presume. Limbo was never a teaching of the church; it was theological speculation to reconcile different views of particular situations. It has been widely accepted by the church for forty years, or more, that Limbo was a dead end concept. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/46 "2006-05-30T05:36:08Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > If you are not Catholic and a member of this diocese, than what business is it of yours? > > Maybe ‘respecting religion’ should include minding your own business. This is their debate, and their problem. It doesn’t seem to be your debate but yet, you have a problem with them, or is it that you have a problem respecting religion? **Qodgop** gave you some reasons to comment on this affair. Those are good reasons but I also have a simpler reason. You claim that this is a strictly internal affair. However it was the basis of a front page story in the _Los Angeles Times._ I’m quite sure that the _Times_ doesn’t send reporters around to churches in the area to listen to sermons and discover which of them are engaged in internal disputes. Ergo, someone in the congregation made the dispute public. Whenever I see a news item I feel free to comment on it anywhere I choose and a forum titled Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share looked like a pretty good place to comment. If that causes you heartburn I guess that’s your cross to bear. If people don’t want to be mocked for doing silly things they shouldn’t publicize the silly things they do. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/47 "2006-05-30T06:25:15Z")
I was just this Sunday at a Mosaic (downtown L.A.) service at which the head pastor made his main point be that religion is a construct that gets in the way of people getting to Jesus, and allows others opportunities for power and control. ---
**Author:** ![MidnightRadio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@MidnightRadio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MidnightRadio)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/48 "2006-05-30T07:17:12Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > …Unitarian, which has had “sky-clad” services in some parts of the country… You’ve _got_ to be kidding. Unitarians? I mean, I know they tend to be more free-spirited than other denominations, but services in the _nude_? Now, I know there are some pagans that do that, but I always figured Unitarians were a little more… I don’t want to say “prudish”… reserved? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/49 "2006-05-30T09:49:28Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > After a Vatican council, or indeed at any other time, Il Papa can suddenly decide thou shalt not make duck noises lest thou shalt be hellbound, and thou therefore mustn’t do it therefrom. Those who made duck noises in the past are retrospectively cast into brimstone, unless enough novenas etc. are said for their souls. I thought novenas got you fast-tracked out of Purgatory, which your salvation assured you an eventual exit from anyway, that being the nature of the place? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/50 "2006-05-30T10:06:14Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > So let me get this straight. > Cathloics used to told to kneel during parts of their service. To not kneel would be a sin. Now they are told not to kneel, if they do it is a mortal sin. :smack: > So were the kneelers for all those years sent to hell, or are the non-kneelers now going to hell? > Program, Program get your program. You can’t tell the sins without a program. :rolleyes: Moving during Mass isn’t a sin. Having the “wrong” stance is not a sin. Masturbating during Mass would be, at the very least, disrespectful to your co-parishioners 😛 but those guys in the article sound like they’d condemn my parish’s Children’s Mass in a heartbeat. Kids are not just encouraged to sing, but even to _gasp_ dance! Some people need to get their heads out of their arses: the closeness of colon to ear, while nice for warmth, keeps you from listening accurately. Some of these people happen to be priests _shrug_ In my experience, priests in the USA tend to have higher horses than those in “Catholic Spain”. I think it’s because in Spain they’ve never defined themselves as “we are the opposite of those heathens there”. In America, I’ve met Catholic priests who berated people for wearing a medal (and then wondered why they couldn’t get Hispanics to teach sunday school); Catholic priests who refused to give you confession without an appointment that would have taken several weeks (btw, the refusal IS a sin, in theory you could walk up to a priest in the middle of consecration, say “father I need confession now, I’m in mortal sin” and he’d have to drop the consecration). Never ran into those specific kinds of stupidity in Spain, and God knows I’ve had my share of stupid priests around here (like that one who answered any theological question with “Jesus loves you” - well, yeah, but what does that have to do with what I asked?). ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/51 "2006-05-30T18:29:09Z")
> [@MidnightRadio](#): > > You’ve _got_ to be kidding. Unitarians? I mean, I know they tend to be more free-spirited than other denominations, but services in the _nude_? Now, I know there are some pagans that do that, but I always figured Unitarians were a little more… I don’t want to say “prudish”… reserved? Unitarians? _Prudish_ and _reserved_? 😕 Sorry, don’t grok that idea at all. Not in my experience. Granted, the sky-clad thing hardly occurs in the average congregation, but the UU-pagan movement is a significant minority in the denomination nationwide, and they do that stuff. And when they do, they tend to attract other UU’ers. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/52 "2006-05-31T01:12:55Z")
> [@swampbear](#): > > I really, really, really want to see [cartwheels] done in church. You, sir, must go rent _The Blues Brothers_ ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/53 "2006-05-31T01:47:34Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Some people need to get their heads out of their arses: the closeness of colon to ear, while nice for warmth, keeps you from listening accurately. Some of these people happen to be priests _shrug_ > > In my experience, priests in the USA tend to have higher horses than those in “Catholic Spain” You may be up to something there. Maybe it has to do with Catholicism in the USA never having gotten past the “minority” on-the-defensive worldview – always the church of immigrants, and always fighting a battle against religious assimilation, against having the kids just abandon religion altogether or turn to the dominant Protestant current… or even worse ;), begin to think that if America’s a democracy, then the Church should be one, too. The authorities in the particular diocese/parish to which the article refers seem to be falling all over themselves trying to make some kind of point on this last issue, and in the process missing the bigger, more important “point” ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/54 "2006-05-31T15:17:03Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > **Qodgop** gave you some reasons to comment on this affair. Those are good reasons but I also have a simpler reason. > > You claim that this is a strictly internal affair. However it was the basis of a front page story in the _Los Angeles Times._ I’m quite sure that the _Times_ doesn’t send reporters around to churches in the area to listen to sermons and discover which of them are engaged in internal disputes. Ergo, someone in the congregation made the dispute public. > > Whenever I see a news item I feel free to comment on it anywhere I choose and a forum titled Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share looked like a pretty good place to comment. If that causes you heartburn I guess that’s your cross to bear. > > If people don’t want to be mocked for doing silly things they shouldn’t publicize the silly things they do. My ‘problem’ with your OP is the opening. You sound like every noisy neighbor ala Mrs Kravitz. “Look at those Catholics argueing about kneeling.” Of course people of all faiths argue about the minutia. Kirk VS. Picard, the DH rule, the off sides rule, and many, many others. Just because the Times made a story about it, doesn’t make it true. People who are kneeling are not perfroming a mortal sin, no matter what some bishop said. The sad fact of the world is that all media is a total freak show, but rather than people with rare birth ‘defects’ we just watch the freaks. It is a freak of a Catholic offiicial that would cry ‘mortal sin’ at someone choosing to kneel during a traditional point of kneeling. It is a freak that cries a Jihad on America, it is a freak that goes on American Idol or Survivor or any of the other ‘Reality’ television. News reporting is all about telling us about the absolute fringes of the world because that sells better. I remember a time when the cranky news host was the freak. Morrton Downey Jr., in his original incarnation, was a freak. Now the airwaves are full of freaks, running the show. I also hate the ’ no lame pit threads’ rule. This thread is that, a lame pit thread. If you put it in the pit, it would have been moved anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/55 "2006-05-31T15:21:34Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Because the Catholic hierarchy seems to expect to be taken seriously in other areas of public life, where they threaten to withhold the sacrament or even excommunicate catholic politicians who favor stem cell research or reproductive rights. Or when their clergy preach the evils of gay sex and push for legislation to make it illegal. To name only a few current worldwide examples. > > If an organization wants to make their beliefs a basis for public policy, then the public has a right, if not a responsibility, to examine and form opinions on those beliefs. > > IMHO. Refresh my memory, which politian was excommunicated by the Church? Or witheld the sacrement? Which ‘Church’ official said that was the new policy? Or was it just some crank with no real authority? ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/56 "2006-05-31T15:28:50Z")
**Zebra** , they threaten excommunication and the witholding of sacraments. To my knowledge, none of these threats have been carried out. No, I’m not going to provide a cite. If you were paying attention during the last presidential election, you would have read the news about it. Many Catholic voters take these officials pronouncements seriously and vote accordingly. That affects public policy. This, and many other things, makes the Catholic Church open to criticism. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/57 "2006-05-31T16:00:44Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Because a large number of people will become beligerent and possibly violent upon perceived disrespect to their religion. > > If you feel you can handle that, then no reason. As Mencken said, “We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.” ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/58 "2006-05-31T16:05:49Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Refresh my memory, which politian was excommunicated by the Church? Or witheld the sacrement? Which ‘Church’ official said that was the new policy? > Or was it just some crank with no real authority? I said “threatened”. And here’s an example by bishops and an archbishop. I would expect that they are not cranks with no real authority. A Cardinal is considered to be a Prince of the church, no? [http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6706](http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6706) > [@](#): > > Bogotá, May. 12, 2006 (CNA) - In response to a ruling by Colombia’s Constitutional Court making the country the first in Latin America to legalize abortion, the country’s bishops said Thursday that civil disobedience may be necessary to resist the new immoral law. Likewise, Bogotá’s Archbishop, **Cardinal Pedro Rubiano Saenz is threatening excommunication against the responsible lawmakers**. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541/59 "2006-05-31T22:55:46Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Refresh my memory, which politian was excommunicated by the Church? Or witheld the sacrement? Which ‘Church’ official said that was the new policy? > Or was it just some crank with no real authority? [Cite No. 1](http://www.beliefnet.com/story/136/story_13692_1.html) > [@](#): > > In the past few months, three American Catholic bishops have indicated to several ostensibly Catholic politicians that their pro-choice positions are incompatible with their public stance as Catholics. “You have failed to restrict the evil of abortion when the opportunity presented itself,” said Bishop Raymond Burke of La Crosse in a letter to Wisconsin state senator Julie Lassa. Bishops in California and South Dakota have taken similar steps against politicians … Let’s see what exactly what bishops have ‘threatened.’ Bishop Burke’s letter said that if Catholic legislators continued to vote for bills related to abortion rights, he would “ask them not to present themselves to receive the sacraments because they would not be Catholics in good standing" [Cite No. 2](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03315/238273.stm) > [@](#): > > Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Neb. – who in past years raised hackles of fellow bishops and others by excommunicating parishioners who belonged to organizations ranging from Planned Parenthood to a schismatic movement to restore the Latin Mass – called for decisive action against Catholic politicians who advocate abortion rights. Without naming names, he criticized the bishops for including such a politician on their National Lay Review Board on sexual abuse – an apparent reference to Leon Panetta, former U.S. representative from California. [Cite No. 3](http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kralis/041025) > [@](#): > > So egregious to authentic Catholicism are Kerry’s beliefs that twelve magisterial [sup]2[/sup] Bishops have proclaimed that John Kerry cannot receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion anywhere within their diocesan boundaries. Several other Bishops have strongly warned their flock that if a Catholic were to vote for a candidate who promotes procured abortion, they will be committing a grave, mortal sin. [sup]3[/sup] > > 2 - Magisterial means those Bishops who teach as the Pope infallibly teaches. This is called the ‘ordinary magisterium.’ If a Bishop or priest teaches contrary to the Magisterium, that Bishop is asked to reconsider his beliefs which are outside of the Catholic community; next the cleric is disciplined and, if necessary, then sanctioned. > > 3 - The distinguished list of Bishops to date (10/7/04) is: Archbishop Raymond L Burke of St. Louis, MO; Archbishop John F. Donoghue Archbishop of Atlanta, GA; Bishop Fabian W. Bruskewitz of Lincoln NE; Bishop Henry Rene Gracida, Bishop Emeritus of Corpus Christi, TX; Bishop Robert F. Vasa, Baker, OR; Bishop Joseph Galante of Camden, NJ; Bishop John M. Smith of Trenton, NJ; Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs, CO; Bishop Gerald Gettelfinger of Evansville, IN; Bishop Robert J. Baker Bishop of Charleston, SC; Bishop Peter J. Jugis Bishop of Charlotte, NC; Bishop John Y. Yanta, Bishop of Amarillo, TX. > [@Zebra](#): > > It is a freak of a Catholic offiicial that would cry ‘mortal sin’ at someone choosing to kneel during a traditional point of kneeling. From the OP cite: > [@](#): > > The debate is being played out in at least a dozen parishes nationwide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-really-hard-to-take-this-stuff-seriously/358541.md?page=2)