# It's sad to see racial prejudice alive and well in business and banking **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 7, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207 "2011-07-07T17:32:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/162 "2011-07-12T17:38:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What is this - some sort of feedback loop, where every time the guy sets out to cash his cheque, he gets dicked around, only to receive an even-larger cheque as compensation, and then he sets out to cash that one … ? 😃 But finally he realises his mistake: he goes to another bank to start an account there with the cheque from Chase, and by this time the cheque is big enough to bankrupt Chase. (They’d gotten so used to him not being able to cash the cheque that their thinking became sloppy.) Or at least that would happen in a perfect world. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/163 "2011-07-12T17:44:11Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > But finally he realises his mistake: he goes to another bank to start an account there with the cheque from Chase, and by this time the cheque is big enough to bankrupt Chase. (They’d gotten so used to him not being able to cash the cheque that their thinking became sloppy.) > > Or at least that would happen in a perfect world. In the non-perfect world, a guy without a bank account wanders in off the street and attempts to cash his ‘ten trillion dollar’ cheque in your average main street bank, and runs into some … concerns. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/164 "2011-07-12T18:38:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What is this - some sort of feedback loop, where every time the guy sets out to cash his cheque, he gets dicked around, only to receive an even-larger cheque as compensation, and then he sets out to cash that one … ? 😃 Eventually he sends me an e-mail offering me 30% of the money if I cash the check for him. All I have to do is send him my details so he can deposit it in my account. As a matter of fact, I think he already has. Twelve times. Although I didn’t realize he had been married to the oil minister. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/165 "2011-07-12T19:14:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It _was_ in their hot little hands. > > What happened to it subsequently is none of the customer’s concern. > > The issue here is who should have the use of the money (and who should have the risk of uncertainty) _after_ a perfectly valid cheque was presented for payment - the bank, or the customer. > > I’m not a banking lawyer, and obviously not one in that jurisdiction, but I think the answer is clear - once a valid cheque is presented for payment and cleared, it is the customer’s money - not the bank’s. The bank takes any possible risk of subsequent fraud using its own paperwork. > > It hardly lies in the bank’s mouth to say, “oh, but because of a fraud investigation launched by us, which as it turned out is totally without foundation, we get to keep your money for a month because we do not physically have the cheque any more, having ourselves handed it over to someone, and so can’t take the risk that the customer may come back and try to defraud us by cashing it again because we did not stamp it cancelled”. I’m no expert either, but UCC § 3-302(a)(1) seems to say that the bank doesn’t become a holder in due course if the check is irregular enough to “call into question its authenticity.” I welcome correction on the point, and the truth is that I never quite mastered the UCC at any point. But it sure seems to read as though the bank CAN hold off on paying under those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/166 "2011-07-12T21:00:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m no expert either, but UCC § 3-302(a)(1) seems to say that the bank doesn’t become a holder in due course if the check is irregular enough to “call into question its authenticity.” > > I welcome correction on the point, and the truth is that I never quite mastered the UCC at any point. But it sure seems to read as though the bank CAN hold off on paying under those circumstances. There was nothing “irregular” about the cheque itself. The provision reads as follows: > [@](#): > > (a) Subject to subsection (c) and Section 3-106(d), “holder in due course” means the holder of an instrument if: > (1) the instrument when issued or negotiated to the holder does not bear such apparent evidence of forgery or alteration or is not otherwise so irregular or incomplete as to call into question its authenticity; In short, the inquiry concerns the “instrument” itself. There was absolutely nothing in the facts to suggest that there was any irregularity concerning the cheque _itself_ (which was, in point of fact, issued by the bank) that called it into question - what was questionable was (arguably) the credit history of the person _presenting_ the cheque, and his deportment. That isn’t caught by this provision. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/167 "2011-07-12T22:03:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There was absolutely nothing in the facts to suggest that there was any irregularity concerning the cheque _itself_ (which was, in point of fact, issued by the bank) that called it into question. Actually, all accounts (even those provided by Mr. Njoku and his counsel) agree that the teller was not satisfied with appearance of the cheque itself. > [@Original Article](#): > > The Customer Banker said the check looked fake, so she took it, along with Njoku’s driver license and credit card, and called Bank Support. The impression that I’ve had from this is that the teller followed an existing fraud management policy which somehow returned a false positive in this case. (eg; there was something unexpected about the cheque stock, or there was some glitch when the cheque was printed.) The software we use to drive our cheque printer sometimes gets buggered up on individual workstations, with the result that the routing numbers printed on the bottom appear are not presented with a proper MICR font, and instead get printed with the SYSTEM font. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/168 "2011-07-12T22:35:39Z")
BTW, some people seem to be assuming that his past experience with the bank (i.e. account closed due to multiple overdrafts, leaving a $600 balance owed). But if he just walked into the Chase Bank branch and presented the cashier’s check and his ID, would they have known that this was the same person whose account was closed due to overdrafts? ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/169 "2011-07-12T23:38:44Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > As it all turns out, the bank obviously screwed up, but I don’t know why the knee-jerk reaction is always “racism!” > > I don’t know why the bank didn’t get the tow company to return his car, but I can’t see any car getting auctioned after only 2 weeks. > > I’m not saying the bank isn’t a huge dick. I just think there’s more to the story that got this guy locked up. Yeah. He was asking for it.:rolleyes: > [@runner pat](#): > > But if he wins, how is he going to cash the check? If I were him, I’d open an account at a different (not Chase) bank. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > At which point, they _left a message_ with the police, saying “Sorry, our mistake.” I’d think they would have been a little more proactive in clearing this up. Like perhaps visiting the police department, seeing that he was released, bringing him back to the bank, giving him his money and apologizing profusely. And _that_ is how it should have been handled, racism or not, rather than waiting for the guy to retain a lawyer before deciding this needs “investigating”. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And another thing: this attitude some people have that it must be racism when a black (or whatever) person is treated badly is counter-productive to the goal of furthering equality and racial harmony. It creates fear when dealing with black people–banks (for example) may feel they must handle black people with kid gloves for fear of being branded as racists. I find it evidence of racism that some people (almost invariably white) vehemently deny any such thing was involved in each and every instance in which someone proposes it may have been a factor. There’s a component to racism that flies under your radar, and that’s how you assume the treatment you get by others is the same sort of treatment everybody else gets. My nephew lives in the Pacific Northwest. When he watches the evening news from [Portland, OR](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon#Diversity_and_racism), if anyone gets shot by police it is almost invariably a person of color, despite the fact that only 26% of the population isn’t Caucasian. The man was treated badly by his (former) bank for what turns out to be no rational reason. Given the circumstances, it’s probable that race was a factor, even if it turns out not to be the deciding one. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/170 "2011-07-13T13:52:45Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Actually, all accounts (even those provided by Mr. Njoku and his counsel) agree that the teller was not satisfied with appearance of the cheque itself.The impression that I’ve had from this is that the teller followed an existing fraud management policy which somehow returned a false positive in this case. (eg; there was something unexpected about the cheque stock, or there was some glitch when the cheque was printed.) > > The software we use to drive our cheque printer sometimes gets buggered up on individual workstations, with the result that the routing numbers printed on the bottom appear are not presented with a proper MICR font, and instead get printed with the SYSTEM font. There is no evidence to suggest that the teller’s subjective impression was actually correct. Given that the cheque was _not_ fake, and that there is no subsequent mention of any concern or issue with the cheque itself, it seems rather more probable that the teller was simply wrong in her off-the-cuff impression. A subjective impression (which turns out to be wrong) isn’t enough to trigger the test in UCC § 3-302(a)(1); otherwise, that test would be meaningless, and any cheque could be rejected because “I don’t think it looks right”. What is required is _evidence_ of forgery, alteration or irregularity. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/171 "2011-07-13T15:39:24Z")
Something that no one’s brought up yet… 1. Whatever was wrong with the cheque, it must have convinced the police mustn’t it? Presumably they’re going to need a little more than the cashier saying “it’s a bum cheque” to arrest and hold someone overnight? 2. I would be willing to bet that the bank didn’t even know HIS car had been towed, perhaps even to the extent that the management didn’t even know that a car had been towed at all. Did he ever tell them and ask them to make good in those two weeks? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/172 "2011-07-13T17:22:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In short, the inquiry concerns the “instrument” itself. There was absolutely nothing in the facts to suggest that there was any irregularity concerning the cheque _itself_ (which was, in point of fact, issued by the bank) that called it into question - what was questionable was (arguably) the credit history of the person _presenting_ the cheque, and his deportment. > > That isn’t caught by this provision. How do you know? Has the bank explained what caused their initial determination? Did I miss the settling of this question? ETA: > [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Actually, all accounts (even those provided by Mr. Njoku and his counsel) agree that the teller was not satisfied with appearance of the cheque itself.The impression that I’ve had from this is that the teller followed an existing fraud management policy which somehow returned a false positive in this case. (eg; there was something unexpected about the cheque stock, or there was some glitch when the cheque was printed.) > > The software we use to drive our cheque printer sometimes gets buggered up on individual workstations, with the result that the routing numbers printed on the bottom appear are not presented with a proper MICR font, and instead get printed with the SYSTEM font. This makes my question to Malthus even sharper: what were you relying on when you made your post? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/173 "2011-07-13T17:28:48Z")
> [@SSgtBaloo](#): > > I find it evidence of racism that some people (almost invariably white) vehemently deny any such thing was involved in each and every instance in which someone proposes it may have been a factor. There’s a component to racism that flies under your radar, and that’s how you assume the treatment you get by others is the same sort of treatment everybody else gets. I’m not white, and I don’t find any evidence of racism in this story. > [@](#): > > My nephew lives in the Pacific Northwest. When he watches the evening news from [Portland, OR](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon#Diversity_and_racism), if anyone gets shot by police it is almost invariably a person of color, despite the fact that only 26% of the population isn’t Caucasian. Nor is this evidence of racism. What percentages of people, Caucasian and otherwise, are involved in violent crime? And what are the actual shooting statistic in the Pacific Northwest (as opposed to the selection bias laden scenario of “watching the evening news” you describe)? > [@](#): > > The man was treated badly by his (former) bank for what turns out to be no rational reason. Given the circumstances, it’s probable that race was a factor, even if it turns out not to be the deciding one. No, it’s not ‘probable.’ It’s certainly possible, but to make it ‘probable’ someone has to adduce a specific set of facts. No one has yet. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/174 "2011-07-13T17:32:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is no evidence to suggest that the teller’s subjective impression was actually correct. Given that the cheque was _not_ fake, and that there is no subsequent mention of any concern or issue with the cheque itself, it seems rather more probable that the teller was simply wrong in her off-the-cuff impression. > > A subjective impression (which turns out to be wrong) isn’t enough to trigger the test in UCC § 3-302(a)(1); otherwise, that test would be meaningless, and any cheque could be rejected because “I don’t think it looks right”. What is required is _evidence_ of forgery, alteration or irregularity. So far as I can tell, the bank has not made any statement about what specifics the teller was relying upon. I don’t agree with the approach that because the bank has not said anything, we should conclude that nothing was there. That’s _argumentum ad ignoratium_ – because we don’t know something, we assume it to be true. In the absence of that information, we can’t draw any conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/175 "2011-07-13T17:52:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So far as I can tell, the bank has not made any statement about what specifics the teller was relying upon. I don’t agree with the approach that because the bank has not said anything, we should conclude that nothing was there. That’s _argumentum ad ignoratium_ – because we don’t know something, we assume it to be true. > > In the absence of that information, we can’t draw any conclusions. Not at all. It says in the article that “the Customer Banker said the check looked fake”. No further information concerning the alleged issue with the cheque is forthcomming; the only other data point we know is that the Bank has admitted it made an error, has pledged to change its practices, and has settled with the fellow to his full satisfaction. Now read the “she said it looked fake” in context: > [@](#): > > Njoku signed up to have the rebate deposited directly into his Chase Bank account. But when the IRS rebate arrived, there was a problem. Chase had closed Njoku’s account because of overdrawn checks in the past. The bank deducted $600 to cover what he owed them and mailed him a cashier’s check for the difference–$8,463.21. > > But when Njoku showed up at the Chase branch near his house intending to cash the check, he was in for a nasty surprise. > > The check had Njoku’s name and address on it and was issued by JP Morgan Chase. But the Chase Customer Banker who handles large checks at the Auburn branch was immediately suspicious. > > “I was embarrassed,” Njoku said. “She asked me what I did for a living. Asked me where I got the check from, looked me up and down—like ‘you just bought a house in Auburn, really?’ She didn’t believe that,” he said. > > The Customer Banker said the check looked fake, so she took it, along with Njoku’s driver license and credit card, and called Bank Support. Note that the “she said it looked fake” comes _after_ she was already suspicious about the guy for quite different reasons. The natural conclusion from what we _do_ know (namely, the teller was already suspicious of the guy because of the nature of the transaction, the overdrafts, the alleged house sale) _and_ the fact that there was, as we know, nothing “fake” about the cheque at all, _and_ the fact that there is nowhere any further mention of any problem on the face of the cheque, _and_ that the bank has admitted its error and settled, is that the teller was simply incorrect. It is you guys who are attempting to raise issues which are not in evidence - that the transaction may not have ended up with the bank as holder in due course because of some fault or irregularity on the face of the cheque. There is exactly _nothing_ to indicate that this is true, other than an off-the-cuff remark by an already suspicious clerk (never substantiated in any way subsequently) that the cheque “looks fake”. It is _possible_ that there was a defect in the cheque itself, but a lot of things are possible. I’d say that by the relevant test (balance of probabilities) … ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/176 "2011-07-13T17:57:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not white, and I don’t find any evidence of racism in this story. When I was a kid, we would’ve called you white. At any rate, I submit that your experience of American society is different from a Nigerian immigrant’s. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207/177 "2011-09-26T22:50:37Z")
This story caught my attention enough that I periodically Google-stalk Ikenna Njoku to see if there are any new developments. None yet, exactly - but I was interested to learn that he was [arrested for grand theft auto\*](http://www.king5.com/news/local/Chase-check-customer-arrested-for-car-theft-129663683.html) a couple weeks ago. \*Yeah, I know – I just like to say “grand theft auto.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-sad-to-see-racial-prejudice-alive-and-well-in-business-and-banking/588207.md?page=8)