# It's still not safe to be a woman. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530 "2003-03-11T12:18:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/81 "2003-03-14T20:46:39Z")
This man was Dangerous. He might be a wanted rapist and a killer. Chula’s basic instinct was to get away. But then, after unmasking the Beast and seeing what he was about, she _went back to him for free drinks and or cigarettes_? WTF??? The logic escapes me. In your head you may think ‘I’m making nice’. Don’t you know that in his head, he’s thinking ‘OK, she likes this…she’s coming back for more…’? If you didn’t then, I really hope you do now. That you survived this alive is a Miracle. PS- Thanks for not calling the police. Now this guy won’t be discouraged form doing that again. His ID won’t be checked for outstanding bench warrents. He won’t have this on his record for the next time he tries this on a woman in a bar. There won’t be a picture in the mug book for the next victim to pick out. All it would have taken is one call…911. The bartender’s excuse was BS (maybe she should have a bouncer there if this is affecting her business so adversely), but I’m glad you were such a friend to her. You really have to be good friends to risk your life for her…and thats just what you did. Now I never said you were responsible for his Scumbag Rapist-wannabe’s tendancies. He was a sexual predator long before that night. I do blame you for not calling the cops. People like him aren’t taken off the street by magic. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/82 "2003-03-14T21:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by quietman1920 \* > \*\* The logic escapes me. In your head you may think ‘I’m making nice’. Don’t you know that in his head, he’s thinking ‘OK, she likes this…she’s coming back for more…’? If you didn’t then, I really hope you do now. That you survived this alive is a Miracle._\* Lots of you folks seem to be reading this that **chula** told the guy to bogg off, and he did. Well, the _IMPRESSION_ that I get from **chula’s** post is that the guy _ **didn’t** _ bogg off- he was following her around, making rude comments, talking about her to other people, getting in her space, acting threatening. At that point she decided to try to play nice to get him to calm down and leave her alone. It doesn’t sound like it worked. That’s my point - for many women, when a man is harrassing you, bothering you, being rude to you, once telling him to piss off doesn’t work, you try to be nice so the chance of him attacking you will be less. “_If he thinks I’m a nice person, he won’t want to bash my head in._” I’m not saying this strategy is particularly effective, but I’ve had friends try it, aquaintances try it. **I’VE** tried it. It doesn’t seem to work very well, but I do know it’s a pretty natural thing for a lot of women to resort to when they’re stressed, worried or scared. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/83 "2003-03-14T21:19:08Z")
The “making nice” part is what gets me. That’s what often gets you killed. If he’s a psycho, he’ll think you’re coming back to him. Basically, people were wrong to call you a whore-but you were STUPID to continue interacting with him. You should have simply stayed away. Being nice sometimes can get us in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/84 "2003-03-14T21:35:14Z")
**Guin** , I’m pretty sure **chula** gets that point, and bashing her over the head with the fact (which has now been going on for 2 pages) probably isn’t all that helpful. I’m just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/85 "2003-03-14T21:40:13Z")
After reading the ‘clarification’ from **chula** , I’m even further convinced that she was playing a head game on him trying to get stuff out of him. If you’re really afraid, you tell them to fuck off and then you **call the cops.** Nobody is going to sit around worrying about the reputation of the bar they’re in if they are actually afraid someone will physically assault, rape or possibly kill them. That’s not what a _reasonable person_ would do, decline to call the police after an assault for fear of damaging the reputation of a bar. He was an asshole, and **chula** was just as much a part of prolonging that behavior by continuing to talk to him and even ask him for a cigarette hours later. The thing to do to stop the interaction is stop responding. Let him talk to himself. If he touches you, call the cops. But sitting there for two hours and then asking that person for a cigarette? Does not wash. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/86 "2003-03-14T21:44:09Z")
Perhaps that’s the crux of our disagreement, then. Based on the OP, the guy wasn’t interacting _with_ **chula** after she told him off the first time. Sure, he was talking about her to other people at the bar, and he was still hanging around. But _she_ was the one who initiated contact the second time, and the third time. Here’s what gets me (from the OP, with my comments added): > [@](#): > > The loser apologized, but continued throwing a fit, then found some girls who would put up with him. He explained everything I had done, talking shit, loudly, for my benefit. “She thinks she knows more about law than me, just because she’s gone to law school!” Oh dear. It’s a bit distracting really, but I carry on talking to some people I know. Later he comes to the bar and lingers. I ask for a cigarette and he says no way. (Sauron’s comment: First instance of **chula** engaging the guy again, AFTER he’s assaulted her, called her a whore, and apparently spoken derogatorily about her loudly enough to be heard by several people in the bar.) Why not? He says something stupid and returns to the girls and explains that I asked for a cigarette and he said no. Bragging about how childish he acted. (Who are these girls who are finding this interesting?) Later the girls leave and it’s just him, me, and my friends. I ask for a cigarette, and he doesn’t realize that I’m doing him a favor at this point. (Sauron’s comment: Second instance of **chula** initiating contact with the guy with no apparent reason to do so.) He can offer me a cigarette without wounding his pride and all is well. I offer him to play in the stupid childish game we’re all playing. But no, he wants an apology for his hurt feelings. So I actually give it (!), because why not? He’s acting like a child and I want it to go way. I say I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings. That wasn’t my intention. He seems to appreciate it. So the guy can insult **chula** , assault her, verbally abuse her, and she’s still concerned about his _feelings_? Why on **earth** should HIS feelings matter at this point? Obviously, I know none of the people involved in this little drama. However, I have a decent insight into the baser instincts of some members of my gender (I’m male, by the way). This guy did everything to show disrespect to **chula** but bitch-slap her in front of the whole bar. Even after all that, she’s still trying to talk to him. I guarantee you that guy was thinking, “She really wants me, otherwise she wouldn’t be talking to me.” Nobody fares well in this tale, in my opinion. The guy was a class-A idiot. But I have a hard time seeing **chula** as any sort of “victim” when she continued to attempt to socialize with the guy. On preview, I noted your response to **Guinastasia**. I do hope **chula** gets the point. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/87 "2003-03-14T21:51:02Z")
FTR, no one called you a whore, chula. > [@](#): > > In her official capacity as ruler of the bar, the bartender asked me not to. She said having a police report filed would be bad for the bar. Well, okay then! We’d hate for something bad to happen to the BAR. Cigarette politics aside, if I knew a drunk, strange, hostile man was skulking about in the dark parking lot for TWO HOURS waiting for me to come out, the VERY LEAST I’d do is go home while there were lots of people around. There is safety in numbers. And I’d ask a male friend or several women to escort me to my car and make sure stalker doesn’t follow me home. The LAST THING I’d do is wait for the bar to clear out so it was just me and my female friend alone at 5am. Because no matter how big and strong you are or how wimpy Mr. Drunk was, odds are GREATLY in his favor in a hand-to-hand fight. Testosterone and all. It sucks, but there it is. But since you DID choose to wait around, if you knew this man was still outside, then don’t let the bartender or anyone else, talk you out of calling the police. Even if that meant waiting around for 2 hours. Even if that you’d have had to suck it up and call a cab home lest they arrest you for a DUI. Consider how ugly it COULD have turned out had you not managed to lock the door or had he been sufficiently motivated to bust through the glass. Yes, he was a jerk. But no matter how you slice it, YOU made some poor choices. Learn from them. No, it ISN’T always safe to be a woman. Quit stacking the deck even more in the man’s favor. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/88 "2003-03-14T21:51:40Z")
Crud. My last post was directed to **alice\_in\_wonderland**. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/89 "2003-03-14T21:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > So, here’s the thing. LOTS of women are socialized to “play nice” in social situations. Not to be argumentative, not to hurt peoples’ feelings, not to be confrontational. > [@](#): > > First, I tried telling him off, making sure the people around me could hear so I’d have some support. :rolleyes: Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/90 "2003-03-14T22:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s my point - for many women, when a man is harrassing you, bothering you, being rude to you, _ **once telling him to piss off doesn’t work, you try to be nice so the chance of him attacking you will be less.** _ “If he thinks I’m a nice person, he won’t want to bash my head in.” :rolleyes: Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/91 "2003-03-14T22:06:44Z")
Well, that, of course, should read: Regards, AIW. ::_Insert blushing smilie here_:: ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/92 "2003-03-15T04:53:13Z")
Chula, I almost always find myself in agreement with your posts. But what you did was like poking a snake with a stick. In Doper terms, you violated one of the sacrosanct laws – DNFTT. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/93 "2003-03-15T05:32:59Z")
Seriously people, I don’t know where you’re getting your version of the story from. At no point in the evening did the guy leave me alone. At no point did I initiate contact with him. He went to the other part of the bar and yelled about me, then he came and sat down next to me and talked to me. How exactly was I supposed to get rid of him? Leaving would have been the most dangerous course of action possible because there is no doubt whatsoever that he would have followed me. The fact is that sometimes these kinds of people are best dealt with in a non-confrontational manner. In fact, in retrospect it seems that if I had dealt with him in a _less_ confrontational way, the situation might not of escalated as much. It’s funny that people think that the fact that I wrote a stream of consciousness post shows that I was drunk and my judgment was impaired. Whatever. The bartender hadn’t had a drink, and she didn’t think I had done anything wrong and that he was one of the biggest jerks she’s encountered. I don’t know why everyone’s harping on the idea of calling the cops. Even if they had come (the last time I called my precinct they didn’t even answer the phone), he would have just walked away when he saw them coming. Even if they somehow found him, they would have just told him to leave me alone. I love the advice I’m getting… Only leave your house during daylight hours. (How would I get home from work? Should I just stay in the kitchen where a woman belongs?) Never talk to strangers. (I should only have contact with male relatives?) I’m surprised no one asked what I was wearing. (Surely a burka be most appropriate!) Thank god we’re so progressive here in the West. Only when it comes to women do people place the onus on the victim to avoid the danger. If someone’s teenage kid was killed by a drunk driver, would you say, “Well, your kid should have known better than to get behind the wheel in the first place”? ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/94 "2003-03-15T05:37:33Z")
I’ve read this whole train wreck and still can’t accept it as an account of exceptional risk _based on gender_. And yes, FTR, I’m a woman. And not a timid one. Life holds enough gonzo perils for anybody, regardless of age, gender or intent. Ya shows up, ya takes yer chances. The odds aren’t even, but they _can_ be weighed and acted upon. Anyone who discounts them is…misguided. Without in any way intending judgment, here’s what I’ve gleaned from the facts: [ul] - booze can be fun in moderation but it can play unholy hell for the unwary - if yer gonna play in the first place, _know_ what you’re walking into, and be prepared to take responsibility. - know yer venue and options upfront. [/ul] Sorting through the mess, okay, the guy was a technicolor jerk. He couldn’t hold his hormones and liquor in check. His behavior was inexcusable. Drunks do that. BUT, his horrid conduct doesn’t grant everybody else a free pass. I’m sorry, buy I don’t buy the convenient victimization of everybody else for one second. Terrorized for hours–'til 5 a.m!?–by a drunk? The _instant_ drunks–male or female–get obnoxious, lose control of their hands and/or mouths, etc., they become the responsiblity of the bar owner. NO fault applies, for patrons or cops, in running a safe place. Keep serving drunks and you betcha problems will tank, socially and legally. IMO this whole unlovely scenario is a case study in _human_ irresponsibility, not sexual politics. Wanna walk on the wild side? Go for it. Or just “sorta wild”, with limits to be defined later? Cheap shot. If you’re gonna play, _pick_ your game, but if you ante up, play the game you chose. Veb [sub]A staunch “old” feminist, who believes that women–and men–are equally responsible for their choices[/sub.] ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/95 "2003-03-15T06:11:31Z")
I’ll add another \* to your list, **TVeb**. \*You cannot “tell off” a drunk. You might as well holler at a brick wall. See my earlier post on this page for clarification. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/96 "2003-03-15T08:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\*Seriously people, I don’t know where you’re getting your version of the story from. > [snip]… > > I love the advice I’m getting… Only leave your house during daylight hours. (How would I get home from work? Should I just stay in the kitchen where a woman belongs?) Never talk to strangers. (I should only have contact with male relatives?) I’m surprised no one asked what I was wearing. (Surely a burka be most appropriate!) Thank god we’re so progressive here in the West. [snip]… > > Only when it comes to women do people place the onus on the victim to avoid the danger. [snip]…\*\* **Chula** , YOU fucked up on this occasion. You not only allowed but encouraged a situation that should have been dealt with much earlier in the evening. If an arsehole is giving you a hard time, you take yourself out of the situation whichever way you can. You do NOT accept drinks and/or cigarettes and/or any other attentions from someone who is being a pain in the arse. Period. And the onus is not just on women: this ‘rule of life’ applies to everyone regardless of gender. The advice you have been getting is wise, but if you choose not to take it, then that is up to you. Get the fucking ‘victim’ chip off your shoulder, and start taking notice about how the world really operates. Don’t you think it might be significant that most of us think you contributed to the escalation of the situation? Or are we all complete dumbfucks with opinions that are not worth shit? Probability dictates that we can’t ALL be wrong. But you might be. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/97 "2003-03-15T13:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\*I love the advice I’m getting… Only leave your house during daylight hours. (How would I get home from work? Should I just stay in the kitchen where a woman belongs?) Never talk to strangers. (I should only have contact with male relatives?) I’m surprised no one asked what I was wearing. (Surely a burka be most appropriate!) Thank god we’re so progressive here in the West. > \*\* Oh for the love of Mike, are you kidding me? Who in the WORLD said any of this. Talk to whomever you want at any hour of the day…but when they: CALL YOU A WHORE… wait for it DON’T ASK THEM FOR CIGARETTES TWICE LATER. ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/98 "2003-03-15T14:15:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > **I love the advice I’m getting… Only leave your house during daylight hours. (How would I get home from work? Should I just stay in the kitchen where a woman belongs?) Never talk to strangers. (I should only have contact with male relatives?) I’m surprised no one asked what I was wearing. (Surely a burka be most appropriate!) Thank god we’re so progressive here in the West.** This is like the Godzilla of straw men. It’s an insanely big mutant straw man walking aroundin Straw Man Tokyo, crushing skyscrapers full of small straw men engineers and accountants. Except it’s not very entertaining to watch, it’s more like “oh Jesus Christ how can people be this stupid?” ---
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/99 "2003-03-15T14:43:23Z")
**chula,** face it - you fucked up on this one. YOU did. You aren’t going to get any support or sympathy from me. I’m not going to repeat any of the advice you’ve been given from other dopers more wise than I, but you’d be doing yourself a favor if you got the dumbfuck out of your ears and listened to their advice. You weren’t a victim in any way, shape, or form, so get that particular chip off your shoulder. You haven’t earned it. Oh - **Dryga\_yes** - this: > [@](#): > > This is like the Godzilla of straw men. It’s an insanely big mutant straw man walking aroundin Straw Man Tokyo, crushing skyscrapers full of small straw men engineers and accountants. Except it’s not very entertaining to watch, it’s more like “oh Jesus Christ how can people be this stupid?” is quite possibly one of the funniest things I’ve read in a long time. I just spit water through my nose I laughed so hard… Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530/100 "2003-03-15T15:16:26Z")
For future reference, if you feel harassed by a drunk guy in a bar: A. Ignore him. This means do not talk to him. If he talks to you, smile faintly in his general direction, but do not speak to him unless he asks you a direct question. In that case, answer with just one word, and then look away. Do not accept any drinks, cigarettes, gum or whatever from him. All previous interaction is negated by the fact that he called you a whore. After several attempts to talk to you, the stupid drunk guy will give up and go away. B. For the love of God, do not argue with him. See lots of above posts for further details. C. If you feel that you are in a situation that is dangerous for you, leave the bar. I know you thought he would follow you or whatever, but you could have asked someone to escort you to your car or a cab. There were other people there, right? The ones you hoped would overhear you arguing (telling him off). Most women or men would help you out, especially if he was so obviously bugging you. I hope you realize that in this situation you could have chosen a better course of action in dealing with this guy. Stop being defensive here on the board, and realize this so you can better deal with the situation should it arise again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-still-not-safe-to-be-a-woman/160530.md?page=6)