# It's the economy stupid **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 21, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866 "2023-08-21T15:08:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/201 "2023-12-26T19:47:27Z")
Maybe walk us through the logic you used to ignore the larger population and GDP. ---
**Author:** ![Disinfectus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/disinfectus/32/11085_2.png) [@Disinfectus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disinfectus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/202 "2023-12-26T20:04:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You really think messaging is so strong that 84% of the people can be swayed from reality by Fox News? Fox’s top shows get less than 3 million viewers - less than 1% of the country. First of all, I didn’t say Fox swayed all 84%, I said a large chunk of that 84%. Every Republican politician, especially Trump is desperate to get th message out that the economy is horrible. Trump will tell you that the country is being destroyed right now and all his minions do the same. Meanwhile, Fox is all too happy to spread that message far and wide. The rest of the right-wing propaganda mill does the same, using Fox’s fabrications as fact. Next thing you know, you have a whole bunch of people out there who are convinced the economy is bad - not because the economy has affected them personally, but simply because they keep hearing it from everyone around them. The more it spreads, the more people believe it, and you end up with a number like 84%, even if all of the facts say otherwise. That’s a messaging problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/203 "2023-12-26T20:11:52Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Try the household debt to GDP ratio - 80% when Trump left office, now 73%. Note that it’s best to compare like quarters, given the seasonal peakiness. The next two points will likely be higher than 73% because Q3 and 4 are almost always higher than Q2. Also, Statista is a bad source because it’s often not up to date. Stick with IMF for this dataset. None of this changes your point that household debt per GDP is lower than usual. It’s just not quite that dramatic. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/204 "2023-12-26T20:14:36Z")
> [@Disinfectus](#): > > Actually, you do have a messaging problem if a large chunk are telling you the economy is bad simply because it has been drilled into their head by watching Fox every day. I don’t understand why Fox news keeps getting the blame for this. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/18r9f0s/economist_says_its_all_in_your_heads_people/) is a thread discussing this same exact topic from a very liberal subreddit. Are those people all brainwashed by FOX news also? Don’t confuse “the economy is doing better” with “the economy is doing good”. For what is worth I agree 100% with this take: > [@](#): > > The economy cannot be considered good until the average worker can afford a house, a new car, healthcare, retirement, and college, all on one salary. I don’t see that happening for a long time. When you can say that is true you can say the economy is good. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/205 "2023-12-26T20:20:23Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I don’t understand why Fox news keeps getting the blame for this. Well, there’s obviously some nuance to this. Many things have long been _structurally_ bad in the U.S., like healthcare and wealth distribution. With the Republicans constantly fighting tooth and nail against any attempt to improve those things. The Republicans do deserve 80% of the blame for the fact that we can’t fix the _real_ problems, and 100% of the blame for lying that the problems are _other_ things that the Democrats are responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/206 "2023-12-26T20:28:27Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The Republicans do deserve 80% of the blame for the fact that we can’t fix the _real_ problems… You may be interested in the article in [this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-dysfunctional-congress-neatly-summed-up/995172) that shows congress this year only passed 27 bills. While the article does not lay blame I think it is obvious which side of the aisle is more obstructionist. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/207 "2023-12-26T21:15:12Z")
The disconnect between the reality of crime getting better and the perception of crime getting worse is even worse than the disconnect about the economy. I don’t know how to solve that problem, either. Perception matters and it’s a problem for Biden. However, the reality is that the economy is good and improving. Saying that the economy is bad right now is just false. It’s like saying crime is higher now than it was two or three years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Disinfectus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/disinfectus/32/11085_2.png) [@Disinfectus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disinfectus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/208 "2023-12-26T21:52:07Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Don’t confuse “the economy is doing better” with “the economy is doing good”. Point taken. And no, I don’t believe “everyone” is brainwashed by Fox News. I don’t believe I said that either. I do believe they are to blame for contributing to a significant amount of the population believing that the economy is far worse than it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/209 "2023-12-26T22:02:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When 84% of people are telling you the economy is bad, you don’t just have a messaging problem. A better idea might be to really dive in to why they feel that way. Many are thinking of what happened months ago, and many are conned by the GOP Big Lie. But most simply do not understand 'the economy". And where do you get 84%? > **[Economy](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1609/consumer-views-economy.aspx)** > > How would you rate economic conditions in this country today -- as excellent, good, only fair, or poor? Right now, do you think that economic conditions in the country as a whole are getting better or getting worse? As of Nov, only 50% rate the economy as poor. Then there is this > **[The Great Disconnect: Why Voters Feel One Way About the Economy but Act...](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/20/upshot/economy-voters-poll.html)** > > Americans are angry and anxious, and not just about prices, which may be driving economic sentiment more than their financial situations, economists said. It shows it is uneducated republicans who think the economy is horrible. Dems “Tax and spend” GOP “borrow and spend, then blame the deficit on the Dems”. > [@RitterSport](#): > > The disconnect between the reality of crime getting better and the perception of crime getting worse is even worse than the disconnect about the economy. I don’t know how to solve that problem, either. Yeah, I posted on another site proof that crime was down, and the MAGAs replied that “property crime is way up in LA and San Francisco” . Of course there will always be lifeboat cases- I imagine there are places where property crime is way down. But the GOP Big Lie is that crime is out of control, However, since the economy keeps getting better, what people thought a month ago may not be relevant 11 months from now. > [@Disinfectus](#): > > And no, I don’t believe “everyone” is brainwashed by Fox News. No, but about half the nation is by Fox and Conservative Talk Radio. And that half- the trump voters from 2020 is enough to throw the polls off. Just like that 46% of MAGAs hating Biden with every fiber of their being is throwing off Biden performance polls. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/210 "2023-12-26T23:33:52Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Okay. Let’s just ignore all the bad stuff, repeat the good stuff, say the electorate must be stupid and ignore the signals they are sending you. That should work out fine. Or we could ignore all the good stuff Biden has actually done, repeat the bad stuff he isn’t actually responsible for, and insinuate that the economy is actually poor but that this is being deliberately masked through reckless spending. That would not at all be a disingenuous argument designed to minimize Biden’s achievements because reality isn’t aligning with one’s political agenda. But thank you for agreeing that the Republicans are very good at getting the electorate to believe their carefully crafted false narratives. The effectiveness of those narratives is most evident. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The left has been pushing various narratives for years that went nowhere or backwards: “The Great Reset”, “Build Back Better”, etc. Are the Republicans so much better at messaging that Fox News can convince 84% of the people to ignore what they are seeing with their own eyes? The reality of “Build Back Better” has been so good that Republicans have been taking credit for its effects despite having voted against all the relevant bills. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/211 "2023-12-26T23:52:07Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The economy cannot be considered good until the average worker can afford a house, a new car, healthcare, retirement, and college, all on one salary. I don’t see that happening for a long time. > > When you can say that is true you can say the economy is good. Last happened sometime in the 1950’s, no? Considerably assisted by the fact that you couldn’t _get_ much healthcare in the 1950’s. Much of the medical stuff that’s expensive now cost nothing then – because it wasn’t possible to do at the time. In any case, if that’s your standard, no administration has produced a good economy in a hell of a long time. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/212 "2023-12-26T23:59:32Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In any case, if that’s your standard, no administration has produced a good economy in a hell of a long time. Ding ding ding. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/213 "2023-12-27T00:19:18Z")
So what are you saying? That we should be pushing for a socialist paradise? Or for a capitalistic utopia that existed for 10 years if at all? Current cost for all you posit is at least $300k/year, and is not that different worldwide vs spending power. And it’s very arguable that it has _never_ existed–your sister wasn’t exactly encouraged to go to college and buy a car in the fifties… ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/214 "2023-12-27T00:27:58Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > That we should be pushing for a socialist paradise? This would be nice. All I am saying is stop telling people the economy is doing great, its extremely dumb and tone deaf. Tell them you understand things are bad, but they are getting better and the Republicans want to make them worse again. It is not complicated. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/215 "2023-12-27T01:06:34Z")
Things are bad because they don’t live up to some Utopian fantasy of an economy, but, chin up folks! We’re taking a tiny step in that direction! I think that’s a great plan. Biden should spend his timing saying how bad the economy is, even though it’s about as good as it has been in several decades. “It’s a bold strategy, Cotton.” ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/216 "2023-12-27T01:10:37Z")
Or just keep telling everyone they are wrong, everything is great and their suffering is all in their heads. That sounds great. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/217 "2023-12-27T01:17:11Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Or just keep telling everyone they are wrong, everything is great and their suffering is all in their heads. Your false dichotomy is very badly presented. There is a middle ground between “everything is great and nobody every suffers” and “the economy is bad”. That middle ground is where the economy is actually at. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Tell them you understand things are bad We call that patronizing people. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/218 "2023-12-27T01:50:43Z")
Here’s an article that attempts to explain the feelings: > **[If the economic statistics are good, why do Americans feel so bad?](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/09/15/americans-gloomy-about-economy/70833096007/)** > > Economists see a "soft landing" and strong jobs market, but Americans use words like "dismal" and "disastrous" to describe their own lives. Inflation is incredibly painful to most people. Inflation may have slowed for now, but it’s not going to reverse prices. We would need deflation for that, which would be bad. Some prices have come down, mostly on things where supply chain issues are better, but inflation is still driving up prices. People are reminded of this every time they buy a gallon of milk. A lot of people got pandemic relief money for a long time, and it’s run out, making some feel poorer. As I said earlier, people are making up for the loss of real income by running up debt. People feel bad when their debt load increases. The people hardest hit are the working poor. Most had to work through the pandemic while white collar folks stayed home. Inflation hits them much harder than the upper classes, and their wages are unlikely to rise as much with inflation. If you are already working but unhappy, hearing about low unemployment doesn’t matter. GDP growth doesn’t matter. What matters is your pocketbook, and right now things are going south for the average person. Hence the record personal debt which is climbing rapidly. Also, the labor participation rate has still not recovered to pre-pandemic numbers, which skews the unemployment rate. Also hidden by the unemployment rate are sectoral shifts which may have moved people from preferred jobs to lesser ones. Full time to part time, manufacturing to customer service, whatever. The economy took a huge ahock sue to the lockdowns, and it will be a long time before we discover all the things that changed which may be affecting people. And for young people, real estate and rent affordability dominates their perceptions. And they suck right now in the places people most want to live. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/219 "2023-12-27T01:56:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > People are reminded of this every time they buy a gallon of milk. The price of a gallon of milk has come down over the last year. [Cite](https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/RetailMilkPrices.pdf). > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As I said earlier, people are making up for the loss of real income by running up debt. Real wages are up. Real hourly wages are up even more than the rest of them. [Cite](https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-purchasing-power-of-american-households#:~:text=Real%20Wages%20Across%20the%20Income%20Distribution&text=As%20a%20result%2C%20earnings%20have,percent%20between%202019%20and%202023.). OK, I’m once again done with battling feelings with cites. Please provide cites for your claims about the labor participation rate and sectoral shifts. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866/220 "2023-12-27T01:59:06Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Please provide cites for your claims about the labor participation rate Adjusted for the retiring of the Baby Boomers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-economy-stupid/988866.md?page=12)