# It's the official last Presidential Debate thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001 "2008-10-15T03:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/481 "2008-10-16T13:48:00Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I want to see her track record before it hit her family. Track is the older one. Trig is the one with with Down’s Syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/482 "2008-10-16T13:51:52Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m pro-choice and pro-Obama, but I really don’t like the way people are reacting to this bit from McCain. > > By putting “health” in scare quotes, he was conveying a skeptical attitude toward the notion that the issues in question really are health issues. In other words, he was claiming that the “health of the mother” clause gets interpreted in law to include matters that are not _actually_ health issues. > > So it’s certainly wrong to respond to McCain by simply insisting “Of _course_ the health of the mother is important, you bastard!” He didn’t say otherwise. He’s not saying health is not important. He’s saying people are calling things “health related” that aren’t actually health related. > > What I want to know is specifics–what issues exactly are they that McCain is talking about, that he thinks are not genuine health issues, but that nevertheless get interpreted into the “health” clause in actual legal practice? Until I can see examples, I don’t know what he’s talking about. > > -FrL- The pro-life argument I’ve heard regarding this is that mental health is included under the health umbrella and they think that allows women to have third term abortions just because they don’t feel like having the inconvenience of a baby. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/483 "2008-10-16T13:53:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Like it always works, they have no interest in it until it happens to them. Then it becomes a cause. Where was Christopher Reed’s interest in spine injuries before it happened to him? It always strikes me as self serving. Now Palin is understanding about disabled kids. I want to see her track record before it hit her family. **gonzomax** , what are you doing to end pancreatic cancer RIGHT NOW? There are a lot of reasons to dislike Sarah Palin. Being human isn’t one of them. Everyone is abstractly for “helping” people with diseases, injuries, etc. The vast majority people don’t adopt any particular disease or injury as a cause (or even significantly educate themselves about it) until they personally know someone affected by it. You just made me defend Sarah Palin. There’s a special place in hell for that, you know. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/484 "2008-10-16T13:56:59Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m pro-choice and pro-Obama, but I really don’t like the way people are reacting to this bit from McCain. > > By putting “health” in scare quotes, he was conveying a skeptical attitude toward the notion that the issues in question really are health issues. In other words, he was claiming that the “health of the mother” clause gets interpreted in law to include matters that are not _actually_ health issues. > > So it’s certainly wrong to respond to McCain by simply insisting “Of _course_ the health of the mother is important, you bastard!” He didn’t say otherwise. He’s not saying health is not important. He’s saying people are calling things “health related” that aren’t actually health related. > > What I want to know is specifics–what issues exactly are they that McCain is talking about, that he thinks are not genuine health issues, but that nevertheless get interpreted into the “health” clause in actual legal practice? Until I can see examples, I don’t know what he’s talking about. > > -FrL- The pro-life argument I’ve heard regarding this is that mental health is included under the health umbrella and they think that allows women to have third term abortions just because they don’t feel like having the inconvenience of a baby. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/485 "2008-10-16T14:02:03Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m pro-choice and pro-Obama, but I really don’t like the way people are reacting to this bit from McCain. > > By putting “health” in scare quotes, he was conveying a skeptical attitude toward the notion that the issues in question really are health issues. In other words, he was claiming that the “health of the mother” clause gets interpreted in law to include matters that are not _actually_ health issues. I agree that was probably his intent. However, I think he phrased very poorly. By doing his little air quote gesture, he _seemed_ to be diminishing the importance of women’s health. And my immediate reaction was one of anger. At least according to the squiggly line polls, undecided women voters did not like his answer on the issue either. McCain is the one who needs to make the case to voters–we’re not the ones who should have to parse his fired-off answers for nuance. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/486 "2008-10-16T14:06:20Z")
What he meant, _at best_, is that women can’t be trusted to determine their own health, or how best to maintain/achieve it. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/487 "2008-10-16T14:13:39Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Track is the older one. Trig is the one with with Down’s Syndrome. Well, now you’ve gone and confused me. Who’s on first? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/488 "2008-10-16T14:13:39Z")
I see on preview that others have made the same point, but I typed the whole thing out, so here ya go: > [@burundi](#): > > I’m sorry, but did McCain use air quotes about the “health” of the mother in cases of late-term abortion? Fuck you, you sorry-ass motherfucker. I’m not a single-issue voter, and I’m ambivalent about abortion, but my health as an expectant mother is pretty goddamn important to me. I kind of understand what he was getting at. “The health of the mother” is an extremely broad category when used with regard to abortion in general. It encompasses physical AND mental health, and the broadest range of each. It can include health conditions that will surely kill the woman if she has a full-term pregancy, and it can include the ordinary physical risks of a normal pregnancy. It covers the seriously mentally ill woman who would almost certainly commit suicide if the pregnancy continued, and it covers the mentally healthy woman who will likely experience emotional trauma from having an unwanted baby. I’d think that the people who accept abortion in the case of the “health of the mother” would favor allowing the women in the former situations to abort, while telling the women in the latter situations to suck it up and deal. But naturally, there is an enormous range of conditions in between those extremes. So I think that’s what he meant when he seemed to imply that the “health of the mother” thing is bullshit. Because sometimes it kind of is bullshit–from the perspective of the pro-life crowd. But he sure went about expressing it wrong! - n.b. I believe that the decision to abort or not is up to the woman and her doctor, and she doesn’t have to justify it to me, John McCain, or anybody else. Allowing abortion only in the case of the “health of the mother” means that women will be divided into two classes–those who have enough resources and opportunities to find a doctor that’s willing to find any BS reason to declare the pregnancy bad for her health, and those that aren’t so lucky. > [@DianaG](#): > > What he meant, _at best_, is that women can’t be trusted to determine their own health, or how best to maintain/achieve it. I totally agree. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/489 "2008-10-16T14:18:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What I want to know is specifics–what issues exactly are they that McCain is talking about, that he thinks are not genuine health issues, but that nevertheless get interpreted into the “health” clause in actual legal practice? Until I can see examples, I don’t know what he’s talking about. “…physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age…” From _Doe v. Bolton_ the almost completely unknown companion case to Roe v. Wade. This language has been used to tie “women’s health” to claims of emotional distress or anxiety and thus provide a medical reason for abortion. Now, of course, the devil is still in the details. I think if we’re talking about serious emotional distress, something that would need psychological care, then there’s an argument to be made. But “emotional distress” has been used by doctors sympathetic to the abortion cause with a much lower threshold than serious/psychological care. That is the issue to which Senator McCain alludes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/490 "2008-10-16T14:20:28Z")
By the way: I believe Obama won this debate, hands-down. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/491 "2008-10-16T14:21:20Z")
> [@burundi](#): > > McCain is the one who needs to make the case to voters–we’re not the ones who should have to parse his fired-off answers for nuance. For the record, I partially disagree with this. I agree, of course, that McCain has the responsibility to communicate accurately. However, I also think those listening to him (us in this case) have responsibilities when it comes to interpreting him, as well. We should be making an honest effort to understand what he is really trying to say. This particular case is not one where it is that difficult to see what he meant, so I think that those who act on an interpretion of him as having diminished the importance of women’s health are doing something objectionable. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/492 "2008-10-16T14:23:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But “emotional distress” has been used by doctors sympathetic to the abortion cause with a much lower threshold than serious/psychological care. Thanks for the info, it was helpful. Can you point me to some example or examples of doctors advocating for a low threshold? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/493 "2008-10-16T14:28:46Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > So it’s certainly wrong to respond to McCain by simply insisting “Of _course_ the health of the mother is important, you bastard!” He didn’t say otherwise. He’s not saying health is not important. He’s saying people are calling things “health related” that aren’t actually health related. And that the superior wisdom of government, not the person whose health is at issue, shall make that determination. And he called Obama “Senator Government”? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/494 "2008-10-16T14:34:33Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > And that the superior wisdom of government, not the person whose health is at issue, shall make that determination. And he called Obama “Senator Government”? :rolleyes: No no…it’s the doctor that decides. Except when an insurance company is involved. Then the doctor’s opinion regarding anything is totally irrelevant. Mother \< Doctor \< Insurance Company -Joe ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/495 "2008-10-16T14:37:08Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > **gonzomax** , what are you doing to end pancreatic cancer RIGHT NOW? > > There are a lot of reasons to dislike Sarah Palin. Being human isn’t one of them. Everyone is abstractly for “helping” people with diseases, injuries, etc. The vast majority people don’t adopt any particular disease or injury as a cause (or even significantly educate themselves about it) until they personally know someone affected by it. > > You just made me defend Sarah Palin. There’s a special place in hell for that, you know. I take my pancreas out every day and wash it in salt water. Then I reinsert. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/496 "2008-10-16T14:40:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “…physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age…” > > From _Doe v. Bolton_ the almost completely unknown companion case to Roe v. Wade. > > This language has been used to tie “women’s health” to claims of emotional distress or anxiety and thus provide a medical reason for abortion. > > Now, of course, the devil is still in the details. I think if we’re talking about serious emotional distress, something that would need psychological care, then there’s an argument to be made. > > But “emotional distress” has been used by doctors sympathetic to the abortion cause with a much lower threshold than serious/psychological care. > > That is the issue to which Senator McCain alludes. It’s a bullshit issue. There’s nothing stopping the Republicans from using language in the legislation which specifies particular health exceptions.They just don’t want to. “Health” can also mean some pretty serious things. There is nothing stopping the Republicans from excepting the serious things without excepting what they might think is frivolous. Their whining about any kind of perceived ambiguity in the word “health” is completely disingenuous. They are the ones writing the legislation. They have full power to remove the ambiguity. Why don’t they do it? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/497 "2008-10-16T14:44:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I take my pancreas out every day and wash it in salt water. Then I reinsert. You forget the anti-bacterial Dial? My god man, are you INSANE? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/498 "2008-10-16T14:48:55Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > \*What do we want?!? > > MORE ABORTIONS!! > > When do we want them?!? > > NOW!!\* Actually, just for the record, I am staunchly anti-abortion. I believe that if a child is unwanted, we should wait until after it’s born to kill it. > [@gonzomax](#): > > I take my pancreas out every day and wash it in salt water. Then I reinsert. Dude, you don’t get a good one off very often, but I just have to say, this was hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/499 "2008-10-16T15:02:02Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > It’s real. He was trying to shake the moderators hand and they started going around the table the opposite way…McCain just made a funny face when the exchange happened. It looks like he’s reprising the Bilbo freakout scene from _Fellowship of the Ring_ to me… ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/500 "2008-10-16T15:05:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I want to see her track record before it hit her family. She vetoed funding for Special Olympics here in Alaska. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001.md?page=26)