# It's the official last Presidential Debate thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001 "2008-10-15T03:20:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/501 "2008-10-16T15:06:12Z")
> [@mabes10](#): > > i saw that elsewhere. Someone captioned it “mccain losing his lunch.” can anyone do better? **braaaaaiiiiiiinnnnnssss!** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/502 "2008-10-16T15:07:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s a bullshit issue. There’s nothing stopping the Republicans from using language in the legislation which specifies particular health exceptions.They just don’t want to. Well, since the language I quoted is from the Court, then I’d say any legislation which runs afoul of it is not going to fly. So, yes – there IS something stopping the Republicans from specifying particular health issues – the language of _Doe_. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/503 "2008-10-16T15:13:55Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m pro-choice and pro-Obama, but I really don’t like the way people are reacting to this bit from McCain. > > By putting “health” in scare quotes, he was conveying a skeptical attitude toward the notion that the issues in question really are health issues. In other words, he was claiming that the “health of the mother” clause gets interpreted in law to include matters that are not _actually_ health issues. > > So it’s certainly wrong to respond to McCain by simply insisting “Of _course_ the health of the mother is important, you bastard!” He didn’t say otherwise. He’s not saying health is not important. He’s saying people are calling things “health related” that aren’t actually health related. > > What I want to know is specifics–what issues exactly are they that McCain is talking about, that he thinks are not genuine health issues, but that nevertheless get interpreted into the “health” clause in actual legal practice? Until I can see examples, I don’t know what he’s talking about. > > -FrL- I did have the same knee-jerk reaction you are talking about. Upon examining what was actually said by both candidates, and the implications therein, I don’t find what he said any more palatable in the morning. McCain was speaking in response to this statement by Obama: > [@](#): > > With respect to partial-birth abortion, I am completely supportive of a ban on late-term abortions, partial-birth or otherwise, as long as there’s an exception for the mother’s health and life, and this did not contain that exception. > > And I attempted, as many have in the past, of including that so that it is constitutional. And that was rejected, and that’s why I voted present, because I’m willing to support a ban on late-term abortions as long as we have that exception. McCain’s response, that everyone’s upset about: > [@](#): > > Just again, the example of the eloquence of Senator Obama. He’s health for the mother. You know, that’s been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything. > > That’s the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, “health.” First, there’s the explicit statement that allowing health exceptions is an “extreme pro-abortion position.” It’s not. It’s the mainstream opinion, even among pro-life people. Secondly, they weren’t talking about the case of “all abortions,” where you could make a case that the question of “health of the mother” can be fudged for convenience’s sake. They’re talking about “late term abortions,” which are virtually never performed except in the emergency case of preserving the health or life of the mother. He’s making his statement as if women would or could fake the conditions that would necessitate an emergency procedure. Is he saying there should be some inquiry into a woman’s motives before allowing an emergency late-term abortion? How would that work? That doesn’t make sense. There’s no good reason to attack the health exception at all unless he’s completely against it, which he didn’t seem to want to explicitly say. He phrased his comment badly, _and_ it seems like the sentiments underlying it are ugly anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/504 "2008-10-16T15:17:38Z")
…that oh so dumb question he asked Obama last night regarding the fine he would impose on the employer who does not provide medical insurance for his employees. It is the smart politician or lawyer who has the answers or at least a good idea of what the answer will be when they ask a qquestion… Watch McCain and his deer in the headlights look here… VID: **[MCCAIN’S DEER IN HEADLIGHTS MOMENT](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EASpPlcVbdI)** _ **ZERO?** _ Then a series of blink, blink, blink, blink…eyelids got one heck of a workout. :D:D My goodness, this guy has been running for office for how long again. Dense I say. Very dense. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/505 "2008-10-16T15:24:16Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > My goodness, this guy has been running for office for how long again. Dense I say. Very dense. One of his fact checkers fucked up. The funny thing is, they fucked it up at the LAST debate, too, but Obama didn’t give it much of a response last time. This time, of course, he jumped on it and it was one of Obama’s god hits. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/506 "2008-10-16T15:26:25Z")
regarding plumbers, they don’t just run pretty tub and sink lines, they deal with toilets and “poo pits”. when you deal with toilets and the items there in you can’t be paid too much. when they were joined by mrs. mccain and mrs. obama, i laughed at the dresses. they dressed like the states on the elec. maps! solid blue and red. re. gov. palin: sen. obama did listen when he was told, “if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”. when he doesn’t say much about someone, he says a whole lot. there are very few in the public eye (i can think of only 2 others) that follow that rule. in some ways it is more condeming than the most negative statement. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/507 "2008-10-16T15:29:57Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > One of his fact checkers fucked up. The funny thing is, they fucked it up at the LAST debate, too, but Obama didn’t give it much of a response last time. This time, of course, he jumped on it and it was one of Obama’s god hits. > > -Joe I guess McCain/Palin won’t be using that one on the stump for some time to come. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/508 "2008-10-16T15:31:19Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > …that oh so dumb question he asked Obama last night regarding the fine he would impose on the employer who does not provide medical insurance for his employees. > > It is the smart politician or lawyer who has the answers or at least a good idea of what the answer will be when they ask a qquestion… > > Watch McCain and his deer in the headlights look here… > > VID: **[MCCAIN’S DEER IN HEADLIGHTS MOMENT](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EASpPlcVbdI)** _ **ZERO?** _ Then a series of blink, blink, blink, blink…eyelids got one heck of a workout. :D:D > > My goodness, this guy has been running for office for how long again. Dense I say. Very dense. That was PAINFUL. I actually feel bad ridiculing him because he now strikes me as a feeble old man who is teetering on the brink of madness. He kept getting that creepy zing in his eye coupled with all the nervous tics, very disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/509 "2008-10-16T15:32:10Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > I guess McCain/Palin won’t be using that one on the stump for some time to come. What makes you think that? Factual accuracy doesn’t seem like much of a priority in their campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/510 "2008-10-16T15:43:24Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > I guess McCain/Palin won’t be using that one on the stump for some time to come. Hahahaa. That’s funny. Whether or not the Campaign realized it was bullshit, I’m pretty convinced that McCain had no idea. He believed his own campaign’s hype and got his ass kicked over it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/511 "2008-10-16T15:48:46Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > For the record, I partially disagree with this. I agree, of course, that McCain has the responsibility to communicate accurately. However, I also think those listening to him (us in this case) have responsibilities when it comes to interpreting him, as well. We should be making an honest effort to understand what he is really trying to say. This particular case is not one where it is that difficult to see what he meant, so I think that those who act on an interpretion of him as having diminished the importance of women’s health are doing something objectionable. McCain desperately needs to convince swing voters. The onus is on him to explain himself clearly and accurately. By appearing to minimize women’s health, he seems out of touch with the mainstream and particularly with female voters. And he comes across as thinking that expectant mothers’ health is a bullshit concern. I can’t think of any examples where McCain has been supportive of women’s health issues. It honestly doesn’t seem to be an issue on his radar. Which is his prerogative, but he ought to be aware of how such seeming insensitivity plays with voters. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/512 "2008-10-16T15:54:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, since the language I quoted is from the Court, then I’d say any legislation which runs afoul of it is not going to fly. > > So, yes – there IS something stopping the Republicans from specifying particular health issues – the language of _Doe_. _Doe_ says that a woman has the right to an abortion after viability if her health is at stake. If you really think that’s binding on the Legislature (and the part you didn’t mention is that the Court specified that physcians, not the state, were the ones who had to determine this necessity), then are you saying that the health exception is already built into the so-called “partial-birth” abortion ban as an inherent Constitutional right? I fail to see how the language of _Doe_ stops the Legislature from being able to define health however it wants. _Doe_ does not define it, it only finds that such an excpetion exists as an inherent right and says that doctors should determine necessity without the intereference of the state. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/513 "2008-10-16T16:07:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It looks like he’s reprising the Bilbo freakout scene from _Fellowship of the Ring_ to me… Kinda looks like [Large Marge](http://static.flickr.com/80/246304911_01e2d85720.jpg) to me 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/514 "2008-10-16T16:11:49Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > I guess McCain/Palin won’t be using that one on the stump for some time to come. Hee. Isn’t Palin STILL using the “Thanks but no thanks to the bridge to nowhere” line? The Blinky and Winky campaign is becoming downright Orwellian. I really can’t tell if McCain was geniunely surprised at the zero fine, or if he was trying to act incredulous. Either way, he botched it bigtime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/515 "2008-10-16T16:17:15Z")
Fox News seems to think the “Joe the plumber” is endlessly fascinating. They think he’s some kind of overnight folk hero. I guess they didn’t see that indpendents responded very negatively to that line of attack last night. From what I’ve seen, Joe is not even a plumber, just a rich, white Republican who wants to buy a company, but doesn’t want to give his empoyees health care. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/516 "2008-10-16T16:27:31Z")
Well, all those blinks, eye rolls & grimaces proved [good for something](http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1185304443/bctid1859660952) (link leads to video) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/517 "2008-10-16T16:28:53Z")
Some facts about Joe the Plumber: From [CNN’s Money.com site:](http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/15/smallbusiness/small_biz_taxes_factcheck.smb/index.htm) > [@](#): > > Out of 34.7 million filers with business income on Schedules C, E or F, 479,000 filers fall into the top two brackets, according to an analysis of projected 2009 filings by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. > > The other 34.3 million - or 98.6% - would be unaffected by Obama’s proposed rate hike. > [@](#): > > In an interview afterward with WTOL, Wurzelbacher acknowledged that he’d still like to eventually buy the plumbing company he works for but that he wouldn’t yet be hit by higher taxes. > > “I want to set the record straight: Currently I would not fall into Barack Obama’s $250,000-plus,” he said. “But if I’m lucky in business and taxes don’t go up then maybe I can grow the business and be in that tax bracket - well, let me rephrase it. Hopefully, that tax won’t be there.” > [@](#): > > The bottom line: McCain’s claim only works by using an overly broad definition of what counts as a “small business” - and even with that definition, fewer than 2% of business owners would be hit by Obama’s proposed rate increase. For those who are affected, the increase would be levied only on a part of their earnings, not all of them. Damned left wing facts getting in the way of a great Republican fairy tale! ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/518 "2008-10-16T16:43:40Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > I don’t think McCain confused Down Syndrome and Autism. I think it was a deliberate tactic to appeal to more voters. I believe Autism and its related disorders affects more children than Down Syndrome. Since the number of diagnosis have been increasing, it certainly is ‘scarier’. It also can’t be detected by amnio…(no way am I going to work out how to finish spelling that one!) Thus, as long a the religious right fails to get thier way, far fewer conceptions with DS will be carried to term. I have no idea what number of women have aborted a pregnacy due to a DS diagnosis, but I’m pretty sure few will be voting McCain/Palin this year. Might be why McCain shifted the focus to Autism, for which Roe v. Wade has no such implications. ---
**Author:** ![freekalette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@freekalette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freekalette)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/519 "2008-10-16T16:49:02Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > You mean [this one?](http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h16/smartaleq/e29bd235.gif) > > Warning–watching this for too long can make you lose brain cells, plan accordingly! Sorry **SmartAleq**! I went to bed just before you posted. That is _exactly_ the moment!! Thank you so much for posting it. You’re my new hero, and I would like to have your SDMB cyber-babies. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Marathon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Marathon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marathon)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001/520 "2008-10-16T16:51:03Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Kinda looks like [Large Marge](http://static.flickr.com/80/246304911_01e2d85720.jpg) to me 😃 “And when they pulled the driver’s body from the twisted, burning wreck, it looked like THIS!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-the-official-last-presidential-debate-thread/468001.md?page=27)