# Its time for Israel to launch Operation Susa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474 "2011-11-10T03:41:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/341 "2011-12-01T05:40:21Z")
My facts were wrong because I failed to doublecheck my vague memory against wikipedia (or some other reputable source). If I cited an online article from a major publisher I suppose that would be fine, but then it would have 10x more chance of being inaccurate. But hey at least a college professor would accept it in the bibliography! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/342 "2011-12-01T05:41:29Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Ya well I’m obviously not at my best or the best to respond about those events right now regardless it is not disingenuous or a gloss that Israel has and does attack vastly inferiorly armed people for vastly smaller offenses than they themselves commit. The attack on Lebanon for killing 3 soldiers and kidnapping 2 others (to be used to get their people back that Israel had kidnapped) was absolutely ridiculous. > > “…Large parts of the Lebanese civilian infrastructure were destroyed, including 400 miles (640 km) of roads, 73 bridges, and 31 other targets such as Beirut’s Rafic Hariri International Airport, ports, water and sewage treatment plants, electrical facilities, 25 fuel stations, 900 commercial structures, up to 350 schools and two hospitals, and 15,000 homes. Some 130,000 more homes were damaged… it has been widely reported that the majority of the Lebanese killed were civilians, and UNICEF estimated that 30% of Lebanese killed were children under the age of 13… the death toll at 1,123—37 soldiers and police officers, 894 identified victims, and 192 unidentified ones…the number of Lebanese injured to be 4,409,[41] 15% of whom were permanently disabled…since the end of fighting by land mines or unexploded Israeli cluster bombs.[20] Between the end of the war and November 2008, approximately 40 people were killed and over 270 injured by cluster bombs.” -Wikipedia What does any of that have do with Hamas scoring electoral victories in the Occupied territories? You do realize that Lebanon is not in the Occupied territories don’t you? BTW, the last question isn’t meant to be an insult, it’s just not terribly clear what you’re referring to and your arguments don’t inspire confidence in your understanding of even the most basic fact regarding the region or the conflict. Also, what do you mean by “I’m obviously not at my best”? ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/343 "2011-12-01T05:46:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What does any of that have do with Hamas scoring electoral victories in the Occupied territories? > > You do realize that Lebanon is not in the Occupied territories don’t you? > > BTW, the last question isn’t meant to be an insult, it’s just not terribly clear what you’re referring to and your arguments don’t inspire confidence in your understanding of even the most basic fact regarding the region or the conflict. > > Also, what do you mean by “I’m obviously not at my best”? nothing because I mis-wrote badly, yes, sorry, obviously my first posts were crap and I try not to have them be crap. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/344 "2011-12-05T14:20:45Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Yes, I am saying that. I support the Israelis because they are ‘better’ than their neighbors. Their actions prove it. The Palestinians still exist because of them being better. If their positions were reversed, we’d be talking about the horrible slaughter of the Jews and the Palestinians would be making excuses like the Turks do over the Armenians. So for you the deciding factor is that Israel’s poor treatment of the Palestinians is much better than how you THINK the Palestinians would treat the Israelis if the roles were reversed? You think a post WWII world would sit idly world would have stand idly by as Palestinians committed genocide? > [@](#): > > You are partially correct. They don’t hate Jews anymore than they hate any other religion (well, other than the Koran is filled with Mohammed fighting Jews). If Israel was made up of Hindus, well if it was made up of Hindus it probably wouldn’t have the support of the west and would have been wiped out long ago, actually. > The point being is that the land is historically Islamic (forgetting who was there before them as Muslims tend to do). It belongs to them and will always belong to them, according to them. The thought isn’t any different than the Jewish claim to the same area. I dont really ken to the notion that anyone can lay such a claim to a land based on religion that they can expel the current occupants into refugee camps for decades out of fear that adherents of their religion will no longer be in the majority. And are you saying that in exactly the same circumstances we would let a hindu nation fall where we would not let a Jewish nation fall? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/345 "2011-12-05T14:26:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Except they didn’t “attack Palestine” after Hamas was voted in. > They also didn’t initiate sanctions against Hamas’s government because they wanted to “punish people for voting the wrong way” (as is a rather disingenuous gloss of you to use), but because Hamas is an avowed, rejectionist, genocidal organization which holds to its position that it will never recognize Israel. > > Just because it’s democratic doesn’t make it sacrosanct. Still the point remains that the sanctions were not the result of anything that happened other than Palestinians voting for Hamas. While almost anyone could understand a blockade of things like metal tubes, many of the sanctions seemed to be geared towards creating poverty, inconvenience and suffering rather than preventing Hamas from attacking or harming Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/346 "2011-12-05T14:50:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You think a post WWII world would sit idly world would have stand idly by as Palestinians committed genocide? Yes. Quite a few such things have happened in Eastern Europe and Africa quite recently. And if I was a Jew living in Israel, I wouldn’t trust anyone but my own people to look after me. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/347 "2011-12-05T17:17:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Still the point remains that the sanctions were not the result of anything that happened other than Palestinians voting for Hamas. While almost anyone could understand a blockade of things like metal tubes, many of the sanctions seemed to be geared towards creating poverty, inconvenience and suffering rather than preventing Hamas from attacking or harming Israel. You seem to be referring to the Gaza blockade which was in response to attacks, not an election and was also, according to the UN, perfectly legal. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/348 "2011-12-15T01:20:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > many of the sanctions seemed to be geared towards creating poverty, inconvenience […] In other words, they’re legal according to international law. [ > [@](#): > > The obligation of a High Contracting Party to allow the free passage of the consignments indicated in the preceding paragraph is subject to the condition that this Party is satisfied that there are no serious reasons > for fearing: > > (a) that the consignments may be diverted from their destination, > (b) that the control may not be effective, or > (c) that a definite advantage may accrue to the military efforts or economy of the enemy through the substitution of the above-mentioned consignments for goods which would otherwise be provided or produced by the enemy or through the release of such material, services or facilities as would otherwise be required for the production of such goods. ]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5)) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/349 "2011-12-15T01:28:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > In other words, they’re legal according to international law. And? “It’s legal” isn’t a justification for bad behavior. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/350 "2011-12-15T01:57:57Z")
“It’s how occupations may be conducted under the international laws of war” does, however, tend to indicate whether or not someone is using an idiosyncratic definition of “bad behavior”. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/351 "2011-12-15T02:42:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > In other words, they’re legal according to international law. This, from the guy who gets the vapors at the idea of nations bordering Israel not being completely disarmed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/352 "2011-12-15T03:16:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “It’s how occupations may be conducted under the international laws of war” does, however, tend to indicate whether or not someone is using an idiosyncratic definition of “bad behavior”. Hardly. The idea that something can be legal but not moral isn’t “idiosyncratic”, or even unusual. Some person or organization doing something awful and then defending themselves with “It’s legal!” is in fact an outright cliche of scummy behavior. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/353 "2011-12-15T04:58:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > […] an outright cliche of scummy behavior. “Behaving in accordance with the international laws of armed conflict is the very height of scummy behavior, to the point it’s cliche!” Certainly, not an idiosyncratic view at all. > [@brocks](#): > > This, from the guy who gets the vapors at the idea of nations bordering Israel not being completely disarmed. Ah yes, my well known opposition to nations around Israel being armed. I believe I famously voiced that position in my magnum opus on how much fun it is to ride gryphons. Your point is as compelling, and on-topic, as it is factually accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/354 "2011-12-15T20:31:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Yes. Quite a few such things have happened in Eastern Europe and Africa quite recently. And if I was a Jew living in Israel, I wouldn’t trust anyone but my own people to look after me. That is a tired excuse for jsutifying whatever you happen to want to justify at the moment. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You seem to be referring to the Gaza blockade which was in response to attacks, not an election and was also, according to the UN, perfectly legal. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > In other words, they’re legal according to international law. > > [URL=[http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5)] > [@FinnAgain](#): > > “It’s how occupations may be conducted under the international laws of war” does, however, tend to indicate whether or not someone is using an idiosyncratic definition of “bad behavior”. Yeah blockades are legal. You seem to be equating legal to justified. An invasion of Israel would also be legal as long as noone was committing war crimes, neh? Therefore invading Israel would not be bad haviour because it would be “legal”? Legal has very little to do with it. You can certainly criticize plenty of legal behaviour. It was legal for Paulson to tip off hedge fund managers about the Fannie mae bailout but I can certainly criticize it. It is legal for congressmen to trade based on information about pending legislation. I can certainly criticize it. Most of the shit that went down on wall street was legal. I can still criticize it. The fact that Israel is conducting a legal blockade does not immunize the blockade from criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/355 "2011-12-15T21:29:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That is a tired excuse for jsutifying whatever you happen to want to justify at the moment. > > Yeah blockades are legal. You seem to be equating legal to justified. An invasion of Israel would also be legal as long as noone was committing war crimes, neh? > > Therefore invading Israel would not be bad haviour because it would be “legal”? > > Legal has very little to do with it. You can certainly criticize plenty of legal behaviour. It was legal for Paulson to tip off hedge fund managers about the Fannie mae bailout but I can certainly criticize it. It is legal for congressmen to trade based on information about pending legislation. I can certainly criticize it. Most of the shit that went down on wall street was legal. I can still criticize it. > > The fact that Israel is conducting a legal blockade does not immunize the blockade from criticism. There are indeed two issues when analysing any conflict. (1) Justice in participating in the conflict - or to use the Latin tag, _Jus ad bellum_. This relates to whether it is “just” for the conflict to exist at all. Does the combatant have a just cause for conflict? Is the response proportionate to the justice of the cause? (2) Justice in the manner in which the conflict is conducted - again, in Latin: _Jus in bello_. This relates to the measures taken in the course of the conflict itself. A country could have the best most just cause in the world, but still behave abominably in carrying out the conflict. Armed response should be proportinate to the objectives the combatant seeks to obtain. Then, turn to the conflict in Gaza. Is your critique that Israel lacks a just cause for conflict with the Gazans, or that it is behaving badly in carrying out that conflict? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/356 "2011-12-15T22:09:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There are indeed two issues when analysing any conflict. > > (1) Justice in participating in the conflict - or to use the Latin tag, _Jus ad bellum_. > > This relates to whether it is “just” for the conflict to exist at all. Does the combatant have a just cause for conflict? Is the response proportionate to the justice of the cause? > > (2) Justice in the manner in which the conflict is conducted - again, in Latin: _Jus in bello_. > > This relates to the measures taken in the course of the conflict itself. A country could have the best most just cause in the world, but still behave abominably in carrying out the conflict. Armed response should be proportinate to the objectives the combatant seeks to obtain. > > Then, turn to the conflict in Gaza. Is your critique that Israel lacks a just cause for conflict with the Gazans, or that it is behaving badly in carrying out that conflict? I was trying to point out that the fact that the UN thinks something is legal doesn’t immunize it from criticism. What do you think is the “just cause” for Israel’s occupation of Gaza? I assume we all now agree that Gaza is occupied. And yes I think much of my criticism is aimed at how Israel is managing the occupation. I also have a base criticism for how Israel is handling the refugee situation. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/357 "2011-12-15T23:46:33Z")
But, of course, the prime absurdity remains at the core: “Those bastards, they’re following the international laws of war, one of the best attempts to civilize and sanitize the brutal and hellish processes of war. What assholes!” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/358 "2011-12-15T23:51:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What do you think is the “just cause” for Israel’s occupation of Gaza? I assume we all now agree that Gaza is occupied. How many Israeli soldiers are in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/359 "2011-12-16T01:49:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > […] an outright cliche of scummy behavior “Behaving in accordance with the international laws of armed conflict is the very height of scummy behavior, to the point it’s cliche!” Certainly, not an idiosyncratic view at all. [/QUOTE] What I actually said was: > [@](#): > > Some person or organization doing something awful and then defending themselves with “It’s legal!” is in fact an outright cliche of scummy behavior. Your selective quote borders on misquotation. No doubt your defense is that it’s [del]legal[/del] within the board rules. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/360 "2011-12-16T03:43:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What I actually said was […] Exactly what I said. That the behavior in question, following the most refined set of rules put in place to reduce the horrors of war, is something you view as scummy behavior in this circumstance. Not sure why you quoted it again as it as pretty clear that was the attitude I was mocking. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Your selective quote borders on misquotation. Being that it wasn’t in a quote box at all, and that it followed right after your actual in the actual quote box, and that it was obvious mockery of your quote in the quote box, I’m not quite sure how you believe it’s either a “selective” “quote” let alone a “misquotation”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474.md?page=19)