# Its time for Israel to launch Operation Susa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474 "2011-11-10T03:41:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/21 "2011-11-10T04:53:02Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Repeating a claim isn’t really a cite. Huh? It’s generally not disputed that part of the reason that the Shah officially announced in 1935 that his country should only be known as Iran(Land of the Aryans) instead of Persia, in part to ally himself with Hitler against the British who would eventually depose him. In fairness, this was not out of anti-Semitism, I think the name change was good thing, and the Pahlavis have no connection to the Islamic Revolutionary government. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/22 "2011-11-10T04:54:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Shah specifically chose to change the name of his country and also chose to call himself “Light of the Aryans” to curry favor with Hitler. Yeah, right. Iran. Aryan. [Notice any similarity?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples) > [@](#): > > The term Iranian is derived from the Old Iranian ethnical adjective Aryana which is itself a cognate of the Sanskrit word Arya.[11][12] The name Iran is from Aryānām; lit: “[Land] of the Aryans”.[13][14] The old Proto-Indo-Iranian term Arya, per Thieme meaning “hospitable”, is believed to have been one of the self-referential terms used by the Aryans, at least in the areas populated by Aryans who migrated south from Central Asia. Another meaning for Aryan is noble. In the late part of the Avesta (Vendidad 1) one of their homelands was referred to as Airyanem Vaejah. The homeland varied in its geographic range, the area around Herat (Pliny’s view) and even the entire expanse of the Iranian plateau (Strabo’s designation).[14] “Persia” as said was a Greek term. And on top of that, the Shah is the guy whom the Iranians overthrew. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/23 "2011-11-10T04:54:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > It’s generally not disputed that part of the reason that the Shah officially announced in 1935 that his country should only be known as Iran(Land of the Aryans) instead of Persia, in part to ally himself with Hitler against the British who would eventually depose him. If its not generally disputed, I’d think it would be easy to find a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/24 "2011-11-10T04:57:03Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Iran is actually a [net importer of oil](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5109788.stm). I know, strange world. No its not. Its a net exporter of oil. Its a net importer of petrol. Oil is the black stuff they pump out of the ground. Petrol is the clear stuff you put in your car. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/25 "2011-11-10T05:12:29Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > No its not. Its a net exporter of oil. Its a net importer of petrol. Oil is the black stuff they pump out of the ground. Petrol is the clear stuff you put in your car. Ah, quite right. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/26 "2011-11-10T05:13:23Z")
Frankly I think Israel, and the Jews, just need to face the music and accept that Israel is not going to exist much longer. The Jews’ brief and unlikely moment as a victorious and strong people will be history, fondly-remembered mythology. It was a fluke. Almost everyone in the world is against their country; they get singled out in ways that nobody else on earth does. Now their neighbors are developing the power to finally wipe them off the map, as they’ve always wanted - and I fully believe that it will happen soon. Jews will have to go back to being a people without a home, and eventually they will probably die off from assimilation anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/27 "2011-11-10T05:16:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Even to whatever extent your accusations against them are true, Iran isn’t going to launch any nukes because that would be suicidal. Nor are they going to hand nukes over to Hamas, that’s ridiculous. Nations don’t hand weapons like that over to guerrillas/terrorists; America hasn’t, the USSR didn’t, no one does. And even if they did Israel would still nuke Iran, and they know it. I seriously doubt they will, but I certainly wouldn’t have thought they’d decide to invade and take over the American Embassy in Tehran, that they’d kidnap a bunch of British sailors a few years ago, or that they’d engage in a number of other really reckless actions. People who believe they’re being commanded by God and that if they talk ten-year-old kids into blowing themselves up that they’ll go to heaven to spend eternity fucking virgins aren’t exactly sane. Furthermore, I pissed myself laughing at your assertion they’re not lunatics. The Iranian government was confronted a while ago with the decision of what to do regarding virgin girls in prison whom they wanted to execute since they were prohibited from doing so. They decided to have the girls “marry” Basij members who would then deflower the girls(according to Iranian law husbands can’t rape wives) then, after the girls are executed, have the Basij return the dowry to the girl’s parents so they knew what happened to their girl. People who do things like that are a lot of things, but they’re not sane. > [@](#): > > From the standpoint of personal danger, the Christians are here; Iran is way over there. The Christians are far, far more dangerous to me than the Iranians will ever be. And I’ve never said that I approve of the Iranian government; just that I don’t think they are suicidal lunatics, and I don’t think we have the right to mass murder the people of Iran. Especially since our real quarrel with them is that they dared overthrow our puppet the Shah and haven’t sucked up to us since. I do have to admit that it’s hysterically funny that you’re terrified to death of “Christianists” in the US but despise Jews for being terrified of a government that has sponsored the bombings of Jewish community centers, Bat Mitzvahs and weddings, while proclaiming that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are historical fact. > [@](#): > > Yeah, right. > > Iran. > Aryan. Er… yes. As I said, it mean “Land of the Aryans”. Like I’ve said, we were the original Aryans. > [@](#): > > Notice any similarity? Wikipedia is a really shitty source. Please don’t try and pretend you know a lot about my native country because you’ve skimmed an article or two in wikipedia. > [@](#): > > And on top of that, the Shah is the guy whom the Iranians overthrew. Your ignorance of the country you’re trying to defend is astonishing. The Shah was not overthrown by the Iranian people, but by the British and the Russians during WWII. You’re thinking of his son. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/28 "2011-11-10T05:23:49Z")
How is it that Der Trihs doesn’t find Iran’s religious lunatics worrysome or abborhent but regularly tells us that raising your children in religion is akin to child abuse? Israel is the more secular player here, but somehow Israel is still the pariah. Saying that ‘Christian lunatics are closer’ is not making his case. I’m still trying to figure out how Israel is planning on the ‘mass muder’ of the people of Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/29 "2011-11-10T05:25:51Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > If its not generally disputed, I’d think it would be easy to find a cite. Again, I’m not sure why you’re so insistent on this. The Shah was allying himself with Hitler in the 1930s, which is why the British overthrew him in the 1940s, and part of the way he tried to curry favor was to appeal to Hitlers beliefs about “the Aryans”. That doesn’t mean that he invented the term “Iran” or even that he was motivated by anti-Semitism or that people call themselves “Iranians”(as do I) to display anti-Semitic feeling. I was just listing it as one of the reasons why Jews are a little nervous, though it’s well, well below touting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, hosting Holocaust Denial Conferences, sponsoring TV miniseries in which evil Jews kidnap Muslim children to cut out their eyes, and sponsor bombing in Sbarros’ full of Jewish kids. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/30 "2011-11-10T05:28:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Again, I’m not sure why you’re so insistent on this. > > The Shah was allying himself with Hitler in the 1930s, which is why the British overthrew him in the 1940s, and part of the way he tried to curry favor was to appeal to Hitlers beliefs about “the Aryans”. > [@Simplicio](#): > > Repeating a claim isn’t really a cite. This is getting a little silly. (also, I kinda question that the British overthrew the first Shah because he was allied with Hitler. From what I’ve read, they overthrew him because he wanted to keep Iran neutral and wouldn’t let them use his railroads to move lend-lease supplies to Stalin. But I won’t overwelm you with requests for cites since you seem to be having trouble with just the one. So I’m just looking for a cite that Iran “took it’s name to curry favor with Hitler”) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/31 "2011-11-10T05:33:26Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > (also, I kinda question that the British overthrew the first Shah because he was allied with Hitler. From what I’ve read, they overthrew him because he wanted to keep Iran neutral and wouldn’t let them use his railroads to move lend-lease supplies to Stalin. But I won’t overwelm you with requests for cites since you seem to be having trouble with just the one. So I’m just looking for a cite that “took it’s name to curry favor with Hitler”) Or, to word it another way, because he supported Hitler during WWII while remaining officially neutral. Insisting that that Shah wasn’t allied with Hitler is like claiming that Franco wasn’t . ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/32 "2011-11-10T05:42:19Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > But I won’t overwelm you with requests for cites since you seem to be having trouble with just the one. So I’m just looking for a cite that Iran “took it’s name to curry favor with Hitler”) There’s no need to be insulting. [http://www.payvand.com/news/04/dec/1153.html](http://www.payvand.com/news/04/dec/1153.html) > [@](#): > > The naming conventions for Persia (aka Iran) changed in 1935. The suggestion for the name change from Persia to Iran is said to have come from the Persian ambassador to Germany, who was a Nazi sympathizer. In 1935 Germany was ruled by Hitler. Aryanism was equated by the Nazis as the highest level of human civilization, in an article of faith based on a vulgar Hegelian hyperbola. Apparently the Persian ambassador was persuaded by his Nazi friends that Persia would be better off as an ally of Nazi Germany. Moreover, he became convinced that the country should be called by its Persian name, Iran, in Western languages. This was to signal a new beginning and bring home to the world the new era in Iranian history, one that would emphasize the Aryan aspect of its people. The name Iran is a cognate of the old word Aryan. The Persian Ministry of Foreign Affairs sent out a memo to all foreign embassies in Tehran, requesting that the country be called “Iran.” Again, I do find it hysterical that you’re trying to dispute that the Shah was allied with Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/33 "2011-11-10T05:56:36Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Eliminate the nuclear threat with massive conventional airstrikes. Once again, why does everybody assume Israel can just decide to do that and succeed? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/34 "2011-11-10T06:00:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Once again, why does everybody assume Israel can just decide to do that and succeed? Why do you assume they can’t. I’d be very surprised if they haven’t been preparing for this event for years as a top priority. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/35 "2011-11-10T06:04:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why do you think Iran is called Iran(meaning “Land of the Aryans”) not Persia? > > Specifically because the first Shah was attempting to curry favor with Hitler. > > It’s also why the British and the Russians deposed him and installed his son during WWII. Cite? I only ask because the wiki entry on Iran does not back up your claims. [ > [@](#): > > The name “Iran” has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was known to the Western world as Persia ( /ˈpɜrʒə/ or /ˈpɜrʃə/). Both “Persia” and “Iran” are used interchangeably in cultural contexts; however, “Iran” is the name used officially in political contexts. > [@](#): > > The name of Iran (ایران) is the Modern Persian derivative from the Proto-Iranian term Aryānā, meaning “Land of the Aryans”, first attested in Zoroastrianism’s Avesta tradition. The term Ērān is found to refer to Iran in a 3rd century Sassanid inscription, and the Parthian inscription that accompanies it uses the Parthian term “aryān” in reference to Iranians. However historically Iran has been referred to as Persia or similar (La Perse, Persien, Perzië, etc.) by the Western world, mainly due to the writings of Greek historians who called Iran Persēs (Πέρσης), meaning land of the Persians. In 1935 Rezā Shāh requested that the international community should refer to the country as Iran. Opposition to the name change led to the reversal of the decision, and in 1959 both names were to be used interchangeably. Since the Iranian Revolution in 1979 the official name of the country has been the “Islamic Republic of Iran.” ]([Iran - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran)) Not a word in there about Hitler or about anyone being deposed. So: cite? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/36 "2011-11-10T06:13:06Z")
Missed the edit window, but I did see your “cite”: a non-researched piece by someone with no creditability that I know of, written over 7 years ago. This is your only cite? And it includes stuff like (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > The suggestion for the name change from Persia to Iran **is said to have come from the Persian ambassador to Germany** , who was a Nazi sympathizer. > [@](#): > > **Apparently the Persian ambassador was persuaded by his Nazi friends** that Persia would be better off as an ally of Nazi Germany. So that’s at least two unsupported things written in your “cite”. Have you got any cites for your cite? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/37 "2011-11-10T06:17:42Z")
OP’s question seems interesting, but my own follow-on questions have gone unanswered. Is not Iran’s equipment underground, perhaps even at unknown locations? Would “surgical” strikes against their nuclear weapons development even be possible, or would general infrastructure destruction be needed? Arab countries claim to be worried about Iran; do they want to help? (Or does animosity against Israel outweigh their anti-Iran feelings?) And what about Iraq? Under Shi’ite control, is it becoming friendlier to Iran? BTW: Thank you, **Ibn Warraq** , for the interesting historical fact I was unaware of. I’ll be sure to add a “might” if I insert this fact into one of my own posts. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/38 "2011-11-10T06:58:44Z")
For what it’s worth, Reza Shah was pro-Nazi. How much of that was sincere and how much was just an attempt to get out from other the British thumb, I don’t know, but Iran did really increase trade with Germany, imported a lot of German technicians and advisors, and Ahmad Matin-Daftari was fairly outspokenly pro-German. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/39 "2011-11-10T07:20:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Once again, why does everybody assume Israel can just decide to do that and succeed? I’m mystified by that as well. The Iranians have learned from Osirak just the way the Egyptian Air Force learned from the 1967 War. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474/40 "2011-11-10T07:21:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The term Iranian is derived from the Old Iranian ethnical adjective Aryana which is itself a cognate of the Sanskrit word Arya.. So, obviously, they changed their name to Iran to curry favor with Ned Stark. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/its-time-for-israel-to-launch-operation-susa/602474.md?page=3)